tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post4434431684322540374..comments2023-06-21T02:30:06.647-07:00Comments on Project: The King and I: Exodus 12-14 Passover and the EscapeBrucehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08310824690509335801noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-12792028214612506832011-01-24T21:57:38.025-08:002011-01-24T21:57:38.025-08:00@Erp
"Another point is the 'Red Sea' ...@Erp<br />"Another point is the 'Red Sea' is a mistranslation of 'Reed Sea'."<br /><br />That has been argued allot, but Red Sea is correct. It is most likely the Gulf of Aqaba.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-52610291303628646302011-01-24T21:43:27.447-08:002011-01-24T21:43:27.447-08:00@Tom
I stand corrected. Awesome catch. Thanks for ...@Tom<br />I stand corrected. Awesome catch. Thanks for that.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-40743620683092272562011-01-24T21:28:33.182-08:002011-01-24T21:28:33.182-08:00Q: Moses finally looks like a worthy prophet as he...Q: Moses finally looks like a worthy prophet as he commands the Israelites out of Egypt and across the Red Sea. And Moses and the Israelites lived happily ever after. Right?<br /><br />A: Sure...remember the final destination.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10695914476049102364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-42253406440213226212011-01-24T21:22:18.294-08:002011-01-24T21:22:18.294-08:00@ Bruce...
Question, God has spared the Israelite...@ Bruce...<br /><br />Question, God has spared the Israelites from the rest of the plagues without special preparation. Why do it now?<br /><br />My Answer...According to 6:12 Moses is not being listened to by the Israelites. <br /><br />Re-Read 6:9...They were broken in spirit because of slavery.<br /><br />Perhaps God was giving the whole Congregation Of Israel the chance to be saved... the ones who turned bitter and lost faith, the chance to believe in Him again. So He got everyone involved in a Hands-on group activity. <br /><br />12:47 somewhat supports this.<br /><br />Sources:<br />just good ol' Faith that God has a plan for all of us and that our earthly death is only the beginning of Everlasting Life.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10695914476049102364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-9486518862787054252011-01-24T20:33:15.225-08:002011-01-24T20:33:15.225-08:00@ Bruce and Edward...
Q:
I believe it is also the...@ Bruce and Edward...<br />Q: <br />I believe it is also the first of God's VERY specific instructions to his people (not counting Noah, an individual). <br /><br />My answer: Adam and Eve (Genesis 2: 16-18)...God told Adam flat out not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. <br /><br />FYI: Catholics are now taught that Adam and Eve is officially a parable. The church has been teaching that for some time now.<br /><br />Sources:<br />This AWESOME LINK!!! You can find the whole parable thing under the section called "What's Original Sin About?" Paragraphs 3-5.<br /><br />http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0507.asp<br /><br />http://orthodoxcatholicnew.tripod.com/id6.html<br /><br />http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.aspTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10695914476049102364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-91054483358879898382011-01-24T06:05:21.803-08:002011-01-24T06:05:21.803-08:00We must not forget that we come to the text with o...We must not forget that we come to the text with our own lens; we are shaped by our particular contexts. For, perhaps, most of us reading this blog that means we have post-Englightenment, 21st Century, Western, Amercian glasses.<br /><br />What seems odd to us in our context is not so odd to so many people in the world. We bring our assumptions, our presuppositions of morality to the text. <br /><br />The other thing I want to mention is that the Exodus and Mt. Sinai sequences are identity forming for the Israelites. Please remember that post-Exodus is the context for hearing their history pre-Exodus. <br /><br />They are experiencing deliverance, and they follow Moses who speaks/leads on behalf this deity who has revealed his name YHWH (in the Ancient Near East, if a person/people possessed the name of a deity, they controlled the deity). Yet, this deity YHWH has revealed his name and the Israelites are witnessing his actions. They do not control him; He is their Elohim (pretty generic word for deity) and they are his people (covenantal language commonly expressing a relationship). <br /><br />Pre-exodus gives the Israelites the theological foundation that YHWH is <i>the</i> Elohim, who enters into history and redeems. They are learning who this God is, especially in relationship to the other cultures around them.P.D. Mayfieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09363333762006767287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-65785911742607719222011-01-23T21:33:48.743-08:002011-01-23T21:33:48.743-08:00The combination of JE and P is certainly post-exil...The combination of JE and P is certainly post-exilic so the combo story (JE, P, and redactor) as we have it should be read with that in mind. We might want to look back when we get to Ezra and Nehemiah. <br /><br />Another point is the 'Red Sea' is a mistranslation of 'Reed Sea'.Erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18037406583478493064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-19088323769290006722011-01-23T21:11:39.299-08:002011-01-23T21:11:39.299-08:00@Erp
2. The Exodus story should probably also be ...@Erp<br /><br /><i>2. The Exodus story should probably also be considered in light of the more historical Babylonian exile and return especially since the version we have was written about that time (though earlier versions certainly existed). </i><br /><br />This is interesting, but the original exodus narrative (J and E) is considered to date to centuries before the Babylonian/Egyptian exodus following the fall of Jerusalem. P, by some accounts, is post-exilic, but it clearly follows JE. I'm just wondering what you're basing this on. I'm not disputing you! I would be very interested to hear other source models.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-59949135768132752752011-01-23T19:02:02.565-08:002011-01-23T19:02:02.565-08:00@Diomedes: It doesn't explicitly say, "I...@Diomedes: It doesn't explicitly say, "Israel is separated from God because of sin". But I think it does make it very clear that all of man is separated from God b/c of sin. <br /><br />Just because God is not mentioned in a story doesn't mean he's moving away from man. That's like saying, "If you stop thinking of the oxygen in the air, the oxygen must not be there anymore" However, you're still alive so the oxygen must still be there. Don't try to define God by how many times he's mentioned in the story. God defines the story, not the other way around.<br /><br />I think as we read through the entire story of God, the overarching theme will be even though man moves away from God, ULTIMATELY God pursues man.Matt33https://www.blogger.com/profile/15382644010574804879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-85497587930348646092011-01-23T18:20:46.295-08:002011-01-23T18:20:46.295-08:00@Matt33: Where in Exodus up to this point does it ...@Matt33: Where in Exodus up to this point does it explicitly say Israel is separated from God because of sin? If anything, God is moving away from man on his own. Look at his involvement with Abe, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph. With Abe, He's a major character in the story. By the time we get to Joseph, God has receded from the story and is only spoken of as a way to explain Joseph's management talent. And this is never explained, let alone contributed to Adam & Eve's original disobeying of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-12622307383209917502011-01-23T17:58:11.934-08:002011-01-23T17:58:11.934-08:00@Erp
Ya you are right about slaves in the USA. Th...@Erp <br />Ya you are right about slaves in the USA. That's why they called Harriet Ross Tubman "Moses". She is also know as Moses of her people. She passed on March 1913, at the age of 93. Not that long ago i would say.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-70236632520306589702011-01-23T17:52:29.697-08:002011-01-23T17:52:29.697-08:00@Skepticali
I Kings 14:25,26 records the Egyptians...@Skepticali<br />I Kings 14:25,26 records the Egyptians being paid back. :-D<br />Yes there are. We have the transporter. I referenced these in an earlier post. But here they are again, with a few more that i did not use before. Luke 24:31; John 6:19-21; 20:26 Acts 8:39. I am trying to remember if there are any more.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-72403009389416652222011-01-23T17:35:18.301-08:002011-01-23T17:35:18.301-08:00On another note is really good to hear all the Pro...On another note is really good to hear all the Pro-Life people that are in this community. I am really encouraged to see them be so bold and vocal about their beliefs.<br /><br />For the others that think the actions taken in this campaign are bad, says who? And please don't use lumber from my world-view to build yours.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-34832227754677234932011-01-23T17:34:49.258-08:002011-01-23T17:34:49.258-08:00@ Dani
I rejoice with you that you are here. And...@ Dani<br /><br />I rejoice with you that you are here. And I realize that this is a tender issue for you. Unfortunately, abortion is argued from an "either/or" position, completely one way or completely the other way. Therefore we have 50 million who have died so that a few might live. It has become another form of safe, legal contraception.<br /><br />There are no oranges here, Dani. Egypt was warned and instructed. The Bible is clear about this. Even if they didn't have clear details about the last plague (and they did), they were warned again and again. They had rejected God. Permit me to digress for a moment. Moses did not introduce God to the Egyptians--Joseph did. Genesis states that Joseph was a Father to Pharaoh, meaning that he taught Pharaoh and Egypt about God. Then in Exodus a new Pharaoh arose who forgot Joseph. It doesn't mean he forgot who he was, but he forgot (purposely) Joseph's God. So Egypt along with Pharaoh rejected God. Most of Israel had too, which was part of the reason Moses fled Egypt.<br /><br />So Moses was reintroducing God to Egypt and the Israelites. Prior to the tenth plague, Egypt had experienced nine debilitating and deadly plagues. Did Egypt repent? No. So no one can say that the Egyptians weren't warned.<br /><br />Moses did tell Pharaoh of the tenth plague. In Exodus 11:4-8, he proclaims the plague. And then it says that "he went out from Pharaoh in great anger." So Pharaoh and Egypt knew what was coming.<br /><br />The Egyptians knew the instructions, too. In Exodus 12:37, we are told how many how many Israelites left Egypt. V. 38 says that "a mixed multitude went up with them," meaning people other than Israelites. So people other than the Israelites did hear the instructions.<br /><br />So why does the Bible otherwise indicate that only the Israelites were told the instructions? Because they were the only ones who were listening. The Egyptians had rejected nine warnings. Yet as Exodus 12:38 indicate, some did heed the instructions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-50457147852159813522011-01-23T17:33:24.943-08:002011-01-23T17:33:24.943-08:00@Kim and @Paul
Kim you are kinda correct, it's...@Kim and @Paul<br />Kim you are kinda correct, it's in Genesis chapter 49 verse 30-32. I really don't think people read the verse or they don't have the KJV. It says right in there in Exodus 13:19 And Moses took the bones of <strong>Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.</strong>Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-16447606130894263182011-01-23T17:33:00.789-08:002011-01-23T17:33:00.789-08:00Some observations:
Chapter 12:
It's notable t...Some observations:<br /><br />Chapter 12:<br />It's notable that god needs a sign of who's Hebrew and not.<br />The children of Israel "borrowed of the Egyptians jewels" - did I miss something? Did they steal the jewels, or will they return them later?<br /><br />Chapter 13:<br />Verse 12: "That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix..." The matrix? Seriously? Cooool!<br /><br />Chapter 14<br />Verse 4 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh ...". What does this mean? It sounds like God is consorting with the Egyptians now.<br /><br />I'm still excited about the matrix reference though. Are there Star Trek references later? ;pSkepticalihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11491725012753678802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-80333163044528435012011-01-23T17:26:20.543-08:002011-01-23T17:26:20.543-08:00However that is very much a Christian notion not a...However that is very much a Christian notion not a modern Jewish notion and even less so I suspect an ancient Jewish notion. <br /><br />A few thoughts<br /><br />1. We have two reasons why the dough it unleavened. One the law ordering it not to be leavened and two leaving so fast it didn't have time to rise.<br /><br />2. The Exodus story should probably also be considered in light of the more historical Babylonian exile and return especially since the version we have was written about that time (though earlier versions certainly existed). <br /><br />3. The story has often appealed to people who are being oppressed (think slaves in the United States). I wonder how often the slave owners had these bits of Exodus read aloud in churches.Erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18037406583478493064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-63401682666095853592011-01-23T17:26:09.650-08:002011-01-23T17:26:09.650-08:00@Diomedes: Ok, I'll do my best not to referen...@Diomedes: Ok, I'll do my best not to reference the NT, but I'll have to since I mentioned Genisus 3:15 is prophecy. Also, this is really hard to summarize in this format.<br /><br />In Genisus, God is speaking to the serpent (some people don't believe this is Satan, but as we read through the bible I believe we'll see while using context that it actually is, let's assume this is true for this point please). Pay attention to the 2nd part of vrs 15. "He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heal" This is a prophecy that an offspring of Eve will overcome satan. <br /><br />This offspring is Jesus, who in many analogies/prophecies is known as the perfect lamb. <br /><br />The lamb in the Passover is a way of showing that God's nation's issue with slavery from egypt and slavery from sin is being taken care of by the blood of a blameless animal (the animal is taking on the sin of the person(s)). Yes it is the instruction that God gave Israel to save their 1st born from dying, but it is a parallel of what God is and will provide for them spiritually as well. <br /><br />This is a super summary, so again if it's not clear please let me know! Thanks!Matt33https://www.blogger.com/profile/15382644010574804879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-16176051384239385902011-01-23T17:20:12.018-08:002011-01-23T17:20:12.018-08:00@Dani
"Why, then, does God not inform the Egy...@Dani<br />"Why, then, does God not inform the Egyptians they can save themselves by the same method ("believ[ing] God's words")? According to 12:1, God only tells Moses and Aaron how to get out of this predicament."<br /><br />Can you point out where He does not warn them? Yes God is telling Moses and Aaron, yet in version 3 God tells them to speak unto "the congregation of Israel". And in 12:38 "And a mixed multitude went up also with them" This can lead one to believe that some Egyptians associated themselves with the congregation of Israel.Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16369659005071111204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-47199938711068084702011-01-23T16:22:07.223-08:002011-01-23T16:22:07.223-08:00@Diomedes: I'll try to keep this short but to...@Diomedes: I'll try to keep this short but to the point, cuz there are books upon books that expound upon this. Lets tackle the first question.<br /><br />How does sin separate Israel from God? Sin separated Israel from God with Adam. This sin led to man being separated from God, b/c God is holy and cannot let sin remain in his presence (which is glorious and holy). This sin nature is passed down from generation to generation, someone previously in the blog asked the question "do you have you to teach your children how to lie or disobey?" Of course not, it just happened b/c it's their nature. I know this is heavily debated, but I don't want to get into that debate. All men (including Israel) are separated from God due to their nature of sin. This sin is the catalyst through history that drives man away from God and causes God to pursue man. He does this in the old testament by creating a covenant with Abraham (his new nation) that will show the world how God wants man to live (don't think in a rules and regulations way, but think of it as this is how God the creator of life wants to point man back to Him, who gives life). I know this is very brief, forgive me if it's not clear. If it's not please tell me!<br /><br />I'll answer your other question in a different post right below this one.Matt33https://www.blogger.com/profile/15382644010574804879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-43009303403058931272011-01-23T14:16:31.530-08:002011-01-23T14:16:31.530-08:00@Matt33: I've seen nothing in these chapters t...@Matt33: I've seen nothing in these chapters that suggest the problem is that the nation of God is separated from him due to sin. Where, within the context of the chapters we've read so far and *not* a retro-fitted reference from the NT, are you seeing this? And I don't understand how Genesis 3:15 has anything to do with this. My version (ESV) reads:<br /><br />"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."<br /><br />What's this got to do with using lambs and lambs blood?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-26596438981798981802011-01-23T14:03:11.592-08:002011-01-23T14:03:11.592-08:00@Phil Smith: Ever since I started voting in the la...@Phil Smith: Ever since I started voting in the late 90s, I've voted Democratic. I refuse to be held responsible for my nation's leaders' actions during the past decade. ;)<br /><br />I do agree that these plagues are deity warfare. God is trying to make a name for himself. Is He justified in his violence against Egypt when establishing this? My gut reaction is a visceral no. If you are the one true god, why are you punishing the majority of your creation just because you haven't revealed yourself to them before? In just a few more chapters, he strives to establish himself as a god of justice, and yet here he demonstrates no justice when announcing himself to one of the largest civilizations in the ancient world. <br /><br />But what if we just view his actions in terms of what needs to be done to free Israel and punish Egypt? Nevermind for now the fact that God is directly responsible for this situation, is God's violence against Egypt justified? Is the slaughter of infants good in this case? Can violence and bloodshed ever be justifiable? If it can be, what are the circumstances? Bringing in a seemingly unrelated subject, I suggest watching/listening/reading session 10 of the brilliant civil war lecture by Yale's David Blight. He's dealing with the actions of John Brown, an old testament revolutionary if there ever was one in our modern times. The goosebumps start about a third of the way in.<br /><br />"When is a cause so just that the means justify the end? When is violence in a moral cause justified? Is it ever justified? Go answer those questions in an ethics course, go answer those questions in a politics course, go answer those questions in a history course, and you have one of the hardest questions of all. Was John Brown a midnight terrorist or a revolutionary hero?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-81572655655606979592011-01-23T13:54:07.159-08:002011-01-23T13:54:07.159-08:00@Paul "What of Exodus 13:19 and the carrying ...@Paul "What of Exodus 13:19 and the carrying away of Jacobs bones?"<br /><br />This is just a guess, but I'm wondering if Joseph's request back in Gen. 50 about his bones being buried in the Promised Land may be a precursor of sorts looking toward the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead. While it hasn't yet been explicitly stated in the text at this point, as everyone has already seen, the Bible is full of types and hints and foreshadowing of all kinds that serve to support essential doctrines. Some argue that the people of the OT had no belief in the final resurrection of the dead, but Isaiah 26:19, Job 19:25-26, and Daniel 12:2 are examples that show that to be false. Perhaps it was important to Joseph (if he in fact did know about the future resurrection), to have his resurrection take place in the Promised Land.<br /><br />As an interesting aside, I've heard that historically, Christians and Jews generally didn't practice cremation of the dead, and rather used burial to illustrate their faith in the ultimate resurrection. I don't know if that's true, though.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12745303947137379435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-46860308947263646502011-01-23T10:12:20.198-08:002011-01-23T10:12:20.198-08:00What of Exodus 13:19 and the carrying away of Jaco...<i>What of Exodus 13:19 and the carrying away of Jacobs bones? It seems more like a pagan practice than one of the Israelites.</i><br /><br />I don't think the term "pagan" is a useful one, but there are a bajillion weird things the Israelites did that have a deep connection to their Canaanite past, and nothing to do with any modern theism.<br /><br />Just wait until the book of Judges.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4648300866401965494.post-44844079375775857852011-01-23T08:12:35.611-08:002011-01-23T08:12:35.611-08:00Let's look at the Passover Lamb...why so speci...Let's look at the Passover Lamb...why so specific?<br /><br />Perhaps this in itself is a prophecy of things to come. Again, the main problem here is that the nation of God is separated from him due to sin (spiritually speaking, and in the big picture physically). God provides a way to save His people from certain death.<br /><br />He provides a blameless lamb and this is a very VERY important part to remember when we get to the gospels. It was an important instruction to make sure that no bones of this lamb were to be broken. Once the lamb was killed it's blood was put over the door posts and inside that door hid God's nation being spared due to the death (justice) of a blameless animal. <br /><br />This is one of the first (the first was in Genisus 3:15 2nd part) pictures of Gospel, and it will repeat itself over and over again. God loves his people and provides a way to save them.<br /><br />i'd really love to hear your thoughts on this one Bruce.Matt33https://www.blogger.com/profile/15382644010574804879noreply@blogger.com