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Job 1-7
The famous/infamous fable of Job. How much shit can one man take? I find it interesting that he blames himself for his blight. He just assumes he's sinned against God.
This book brings us the first real appearance of Satan as a character. We don't learn much about him in these early chapters other then he likes to wander the Earth and show up at Gods morning meetings from time to time.
Satan raises some interesting questions thou.
1. What relationship does he have with God? There seems to be no animosity (yet anyway) between them.
2. Did Satan trick God into letting him destroy Job's life? Their interactions read like a Huck Finn story.
3. Why would God allow this to happen? He allows Satan to kill Jobs children, slaves and livestock.
It seems God holds life in low esteem to allow these horrible actions to take place. Has he got a trump card hidden up his sleeve? Will he make everything right again after this cruel wager?
I do find the chapters rather poetic. Almost Shakespearian.
Favorite line, One of Jobs friends tells him;
5:25 Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth.
This comes after all of Jobs kids were killed. whoops!
@Bruce,
ReplyDeleteLots of questions. I will just number the answers of what i think.
1. Satan, even in a fallen state still answers to God.
2. No Satan did not trick God. God knew the outcome before Satan even made his request.
3. It's a test and proving of Jobs faith. Satan believed that Job only served God because God was blessing him. God knew otherwise. Also did you catch that Satan didn't kill Jobs wife? And notice what she said. :-D
God holds life in a high esteem. That's why He came and gave His life as a ransom for ours (i'm sure you are already familiar with the horrible actions He allowed to be done to Himself, right?). The issue i see that an atheist has is that they believe that this "life" is it for us. There is no afterlife, no heaven or hell, just this then off to being shoofly pie (Tim Downs Bug Man novel).
As a Christian i say this life is just a vapour. It's really not life without Jesus Christ. You're dead while you live. ( we'll get to it.) I know eternity in heaven or hell are the options for us all. We either trust in what scripture says, there is a heaven and hell, Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, we must trust in Him with all our hearts and do what He commands, or we don't and take the other option that there is nothing after this life.
God makes things better after this time in Jobs life.
5:25 Jobs not dead yet. Just wait and see. :-D
Did you notice that God did not do anything but allow Satan access to do what he pleased with Job, save he could not touch his life? And notice Job or his friend that talked did not mention a thing about Satan doing these things to him? We have the same talk in these days. People always blame God, yet do they really know "who's" doing the work? Yes God allowed it, but why, and by who's request? (John 5:45; Revelation 12:10)
These events also happen before the Exodus. Some think Job is the Job mentioned in Genesis 46:13. It is also know that the Great Pyramid in Egypt was built not by an Egyptian but a foreigner. Some think Job was the one that built it. They get their clues from this book coupled with old Egyptian documents. I'm getting ahead of myself. It is an interesting read. :-D
I do find the chapters rather poetic. Almost Shakespearian.
ReplyDeleteAre you being sarcastic? Its hard to read your jokes sometimes?
Thats because Shakespeare proof read the King James Version. Many Christians believe that he was not chosen by God (and/or Holy Spirit) to proof read the Bible.
Sources:
1. A college course that I took called The Bible as Literature.
2. http://bestfunfacts.com/bible.html
3. I love Psalm 46 and Shakespeare was also 46. I learned this on the first day of class.
4. http://www.montreat.edu/dking/Shakespeare/SHAKESPEAREANDTHEBIBLE.htm
Edward...nice work...This sounds like Romans chapter 5 and 6.
ReplyDeleteIt's really not life without Jesus Christ. You're dead while you live. ( we'll get to it.) I know eternity in heaven or hell are the options for us all. We either trust in what scripture says, there is a heaven and hell, Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, we must trust in Him with all our hearts and do what He commands, or we don't and take the other option that there is nothing after this life.
@Edward
ReplyDeleteGod makes things better after this time in Jobs life.
For Job, maybe. Not for the servants or sons or daughters, who are still dead. And actually, as a mother, I think I'm with Job's wife on this one. OK, given that Job and Mrs Job didn't know that what was really happening was basically an adolescent pissing contest between god and god's son - and isn't that an interesting definition, by the way, given where we're going later? - then yes, maybe Mrs Job should also have been going with 'shit happens' and not casting blame about.
But we've got the narrator telling us that it's a pissing contest. So it's not 'shit happens', is it? It's god saying 'go on, give it your best shot.' It's an uplifting story because god didn't allow anything bad to happen to Job? Bully for Job. I'm sure that was an enormous comfort for the servants and sons and daughters, and the mother(s) of those sons and daughters, and the families of the servants.
God holds life in high esteem? I don't think so.
That's why He came and gave His life as a ransom for ours (i'm sure you are already familiar with the horrible actions He allowed to be done to Himself, right?)
Yeah, about that. It sounds as if you want me to be impressed by it. A ransom. God needed to ransom people. Let's say that again, slowly, and make sure we're getting all the words. God, the all-powerful god, needed - or worse, wanted - to ransom people. Forgiveness of sins comes into it, right? Forgiveness required that god should become human and undergo torture and death.
No. Doesn't hold together. I'm with Dawkins on this one: "If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them, without having himself tortured and executed in payment - thereby incidentally, condemning remote future generations of Jews to pogroms and persecution as 'Christ-killers'".
If it carries a price tag, it's not really forgiveness. It still sounds adolescent to me: it's the teenage boy showing off in front of the girl he wants and expecting her to be impressed. 'Look at what I went through for your sake!'
@Tom,
ReplyDeleteNo sarcasm. I do like the writing. I'm sure Shakespeare was influenced by the Bible.
Not getting the 46 connection. Anyway, 42 is the answer.
@Edward,
ReplyDeleteYou said "Also did you catch that Satan didn't kill Jobs wife?"
I think showinginterest pretty much summed it up but I just have to ask again;
REALLY? God allows/encourages Satan to kill many innocent people and destroy a man's life just to prove a point, and your reply is 'at least he didn't kill Job's wife.'
This is a god that is totally indifferent to human suffering. No more then swatting flies.
Oh, and since we're getting ahead ourselves and talking about the whole God/Jesus relationship, I thought I'd post this to clarify things.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII6-IyaT3o
In case you aren't familiar with Mr Deity, the younger guy is "Jesse".
wink, wink
Oh, and if God knew the outcome, he is directly responsible for the murders of the kids, slaves and livestock. That would make Satan innocent since he was being used as a tool for God's work. Kind of like blaming a gun when someone shoots someone to death.
ReplyDeleteWho is the evil one now? ;-)
You guys are so lively. It's great! :-D
ReplyDelete@Tom,
The Shakespeare link is funny but i don't buy it at all. The reason i say this is i have read that Psalms 46 reads the same in the Taverners Psalm of 1539, Matthews Bible of 1551, as well as the Great Bible of 1569 and also the Geneva of 1599. Shakespeare was born in April 1564 and died in 1616. It was a nice idea, however it appears the historical record leads me to believe otherwise.
I was going to mention this earlier but forgot. It was on my mind to post about it tonight because it came up earlier in this year and the mention of Shakespeare in this post. I will admit the major issue i have is to find copies of those Bibles, and it's very hard. I found a few versions online but the years were off. It's interesting tho.
Now seeing that they started translation of the KJV in 1605 completing it and presenting it in 1611. That would make Shakespeare 46 in 1610. One year before they present this work and their still working on Psalm? With the review process i see this as a stretch. Someone clearly had to much time on their hands. :-)
@showinginterest,
ReplyDeleteFor Job, maybe. Not for the servants or sons or daughters, who are still dead.
Yes dead as you see it, however as i have mentioned before this life is not the end of the road.
uplifting story because god didn't allow anything bad to happen to Job?
No bad things did happen to Job. Job didn't want to live, he cursed the day he was born. This was horrible for Job, grief i pray none of us have to suffer. I have not lost a child or close loved one of my own, however i have had the experience to be around people that have. Satan was trying to get Job to break, and he used his family as leverage. Remember Satan used woman to get the first man to cave. I believe he left Jobs wife to try it again. Don't forget the boils.
Yeah, about that. It sounds as if you want me to be impressed by it.
Impressed? Not at all, try seeing it as God didn't use any special privileges to get Him out of His assigned duty. Even when He knew He could (Matthew 26:53). It's me saying God didn't change the rules when it came to Him, cowards do that.
Now something impressive is being able to create worlds just by speaking. :-D
No. Doesn't hold together. I'm with Dawkins on this one
Really? So are you saying you don't think there should be any penalties for breaking laws? That anyone that does break a law should just be let go? Heck can i go as far as to say we don't even take them to court, no cops needed, remove all laws, right? It is truly possible that we will have someone that won't like some law we come up with, i do believe.
God does want to forgive us, however the laws of Heaven were broken and justice must be served. So He took it on Himself because He knew we were not capable to pay the debt of our sin. And you take it as an adolescent showing off. That's rich. How about a true leader making a way for those whom He cares about?
So do this the next time you hear about a soldier taking a grenade or shots for his buddies, a fire fighter losing his life trying to rescue people from a burning building, or a stranger that gives his life to save someone he doesn't know, just say, oh some adolescent trying to show off. There are some events that require much. Their not trying to show off, just do what they were created to do, even when it will cost them their life. They care for others more than themselves.
History in following comment.
So @showinginterest what's your view on this?
ReplyDeleteBy direction of the President, under the Joint Resolution of Congress approved 12 July 1862 (amended by act of 3 March 1863, act of 9 July 1918, and act of 25 July 1963), the Medal of Honor for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty, is awarded by the Department of the Army in the name of Congress to:
Captain Ed W. Freeman, United States Army, of Boise, Idaho, who distinguished himself by numerous acts of conspicuous gallantry and extraordinary intrepidity on 14 November 1965 while serving with Company A, 229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile). As a flight leader and second in command of a 16-helicopter lift unit, he supported a heavily engaged American infantry battalion at Landing Zone X-Ray in the Ia Drang Valley, Republic of Vietnam. The unit was almost out of ammunition after taking some of the heaviest casualties of the war, fighting off a relentless attack from a highly motivated, heavily armed enemy force. When the infantry commander closed the helicopter landing zone because of intense direct enemy fire, Captain Freeman risked his life by flying his unarmed helicopter through a gauntlet of enemy fire time after time, delivering critically needed ammunition, water, and medical supplies to the besieged battalion. His flights, by providing the engaged units with supplies of ammunition critical to their survival, directly affected the battle's outcome. Without them the units would almost surely have gone down, with much greater loss of life. After medical evacuation helicopters refused to fly into the area because of intense enemy fire, Captain Freeman flew 14 separate rescue missions, providing lifesaving evacuation of an estimated 30 seriously wounded soldiers-some of whom would not have survived had he not acted. All flights were made into a small emergency landing zone within 100 to 200 meters of the defensive perimeter, where heavily committed units were perilously holding off the attacking elements. Captain Freeman's selfless acts of great valor and extraordinary perseverance were far above and beyond the call of duty or mission and set a superb example of leadership and courage for all of his peers. Captain Freeman's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
What do you think? Some adolescent trying to show off. Reckless, suicidal, totally out of control?
I don't know this man, i think the first time i came across the recorded account of this event was in the book God in the Foxhole. The reason i posted this is that for those in the future this might seem a little hard to believe. The odds are against this guy, the others refused to fly in and he's that John Wayne hero. See the winners right the history, so this is all made up right? Trying to make the Americans look valiant and noble. Sorry getting off track, just recollecting things said about the Bible. :-D
@showinginterest,
ReplyDeleteSo i believe your adolescent view of God showing off is way off. For Job the suffering he endured is common with the followers of God, and Jesus Christ. Jesus even told them it would happen. I know we get hazard pay. ;-)
It's something to note that God told Satan not to kill Job, because i'm sure he would have tortured him to death after he killed his family off.
But as to the story above, God lived a life like man and He lead by example. He knew what death, sickness, suffering was all about. He also knew the death that awaited Him. He experienced the temptations just like us. Not some far away God that can't relate to us and our condition. Not some adolescent with a magnifying glass trying to fry the legs off humans. If God was this adolescent that you speak of, He would have never come to earth in the form of man to do what needed to be done. Adolescents are all talk no game. :-)
History may yet repeat itself in showing that like the histories in the Bible and how people view it, the historical account mentioned above will be hard to for some to believe and may be relegated to myth and "winners" elaboration of the events. Time will tell.
Now i'm remembering the story of old 666 from WWII. I'll stop. HEE!HEE! :-D
@Bruce,
ReplyDeleteGod allows/encourages Satan to kill many innocent people and destroy a man's life just to prove a point, and your reply is 'at least he didn't kill Job's wife.'
Maybe you will catch the wife part in my post from earlier. And no it was not 'at least he didn't kill Job's wife'. Does single quote mean your not really quoting someone just making it up as you go like they said it? I see where you did quote me, but then you changed it. Those last lines was said in jest. :-D
"Also did you catch that Satan didn't kill Jobs wife?" That was presented as a question. I was thinking i would get a response something along the lines of "Like ya i saw that what gives?" But yours works. :-D
This is a god that is totally indifferent to human suffering. No more then swatting flies.
In what way is God being totally indifferent to human suffering?
I thought I'd post this to clarify things.
People actually support him? Man i really am in the wrong business. Just like that jack-wagon out on the west coast that predicts the end of the world and keeps getting it wrong. People give money to anyone these days. I should really come up with something. It's great, even if i am wrong they will still support me! So Bruce you want a cut of the action? What's the split? I'm not offering any numbers. :-P
Oh, and if God knew the outcome, he is directly responsible for the murders of the kids, slaves and livestock
Since i'm for some reason recalling war, so the general is responsible for the death of his soldiers right? I'm saying come on, your going into war and you don't expect anyone to die?
It is true God knows the beginning from the end. He even knew about the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in 1963 before it happened and since He did not stop it, He's responsible correct?
As a Christian i am trying to relay the view that this life is not all there is. See after this life there is another. Some will have it better than others... however that's my skewed view, some may very much enjoy a place of no God... humm interesting see God limits Satan and his crew here and you see what Satan does... who limits them there? I don't think anyone. It's open season all the time! HA!HA! Oh sorry i should be more serious, yet seeing that Hell or Heaven don't exist, right? we can all relax and listen to the crazy Christian. However i would like to ask that man, "How do you know that?" Wait till the end of Job. I won't give it away. :-D (I used 2 different links because many people don't trust fox. :-D) I say this because someone following along might just get it.
That would make Satan innocent since he was being used as a tool for God's work.
You like grasping for straws don't you? Did God tell Satan to kill Jobs livestock, kids, or servants? No. So why didn't Satan offer to give Job immortality, the kingdoms of the world, riches beyond his wildest dreams? Well for one Job was pretty well off, i believe. Why just go on a killing rampage. Well i know my enemy and killing is Satan's MO (John 8:44).
more coming...
Kind of like blaming a gun when someone shoots someone to death.
ReplyDeleteYes i hear that allot, take away the guns they're all evil. Yet this is not blaming the gun, but the maker of the gun. I know some guns are used for target practice, tho many are for killing something. So skip the gun, blame the gun maker. Which is really what you are doing. See any gun maker knows that his gun will probably take a life right? Now be it human or animal he knows not. But with your view, correct me if i'm wrong, if an innocent life is taken you want to blame the gun maker. See the gun in my view represents free will, the gun maker (God) gave it to His creations. Now some want to abuse that free will, now the Creator knew they would.
So are you saying that God should stop people from exercising their free will? If He did that would we really have free will? I guess there are some limits as we read here, however if we were restricted from doing things wrong how would we ever learn? Where would the evidence be of our fallen state? With that we could have never fallen, we would have been restricted from doing or thinking about doing it. Because at what point do you stop limiting free will? The lying level, the killing, or maybe the thinking level? You can't just stop a little. If God is going to restrict things that are sin, He would do it all. sorry getting off track again.
Who is the evil one now?
Satan. Just like the shooter is with the gun. Just because you have free will and laws if you decide to do wickedly with it, this doesn't grant you the right to pass the buck to God because "He knew what i was going to do all along". Not that this is you Bruce, but many people do want it that way. They really don't want to be responsible for their doings. Like the lady that sued Mickey D's for spilling hot coffee on herself.
You would have thought that by now I would have learned to construct my reply in a separate document and to save it to disk before I tried to post it. That's an hour's carefully considered argument just vanished into the ether. Happed last two times I tried to post here, too – something on my system doesn’t like blogspot.
ReplyDeleteRight. Let’s try again. If the formatting goes all collywest, I apologise but I haven’t really got time to do this...
@Edward No bad things did happen to Job. Job didn't want to live, he cursed the day he was born.
The really bad things happened because (indirectly) of Job, but to other people. I maintain that yes, it was no doubt a great grief to Job that his children were dead but it was worse for the children. Boils versus death.
God didn't use any special privileges to get Him out of His assigned duty
It’s not a duty if you assign it to yourself, and nobody asked you to do it, or wanted you to do it.
God didn't change the rules when it came to Him,
Yes he did. He said that in order for everybody to be forgiven for things they had done, or would do in future, or might do, he needed to be killed horribly. That wasn’t the deal beforehand, so that’s the rules changing. I still say, why?
And with about six separate attempts and splitting the post in two, we make progress. It isn't morally wrong to shout at the computer, is it? It isn't a bad thing to yell abuse at the internet?
ReplyDeleteSo @showinginterest what's your view on this?
By direction of the President... et seq
My view is that it is absolutely irrelevant. You have war heroes. We have some ourselves. I am perfectly prepared to accept that Captain Freeman was one of them. I know nothing of the man outside your text. He may have been a good man; I’ll certainly say that I have no reason to assume that he was not. I’ll say that in general somebody who behaves well under pressure will behave well otherwise. But that’s not a given. Some people handle themselves well under pressure; some do not. We know that good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But some good people do bad things on occasion and some bad people do good things on occasion. What of it? No, Captain Freeman wasn’t showing off. He behaved well. But he has nothing whatsoever to do with the story of Job, or with any discussion of the necessary redemption of sin.
Since i'm for some reason recalling war, so the general is responsible for the death of his soldiers right? I'm saying come on, your going into war and you don't expect anyone to die?
Step up from the general and ask: what about the politician? What about the leader who got us into the war? Is he responsible for it? Actually... can we go on a maybe yes, here? Maybe he thinks that the loss of life is an acceptable trade-off – and maybe it is. Sometimes, yes, I think most of us would agree that it is. We hate it but it has to be. But the story of Job isn’t about that, is it? The dead children and slaves, and livestock too, aren’t volunteers, or even conscripts, they’re collateral damage at best. And they’re not collateral damage from something which will result in an improved situation for anybody else. They are not the acceptable trade-off. They aren’t dead because they did anything wrong, either in god’s eyes or in human terms. They aren’t dead because they were just there when somebody else did something wrong. They aren’t dead because they couldn’t be saved if something was to be done that would improve the lives of the world generally. They’re dead because god said ‘I bet my guy can stand the pressure’.
Adolescent posturing.
And just to show that it's not all doom and gloom and argument... You know the 'type this random collection of letters to prove you're not a spambot' thing? It's just given me one of such startling obscenity that I actually fell off my chair laughing.
ReplyDelete@showinginterest
ReplyDeleteThat's an hour's carefully considered argument
I feel for you there. I learned that lesson the hard way as well. I have gnote full of posts that i copy to it before i hit the Preview button. It's so frustrating. :-D
It’s not a duty if you assign it to yourself, and nobody asked you to do it, or wanted you to do it.
No it was assigned. (John 5:36) However it's still a duty if you see a job needs to be done and your the only one that can do it. I assign myself jobs to often (has made my boss quite upset) because i know i am the only guy around that knows how to do the work.
Your not correct in the "nobody asked you to do it" part. The reason i say this is that many people asked for their sins to be blotted out. I can't say they knew what was required for that to happen. (Psalm 51:9; Isaiah 44:22) Those talk about sin being blotted out. And they needed a redeemer. Our heavenly inheritance was mortgaged by sin; we are ourselves utterly unable to redeem it; Jesus Christ is near of kin to us, the next kinsman that is able to redeem; he has paid our debt, satisfied God's justice for sin, and so has taken off the mortgage and made a new settlement of the inheritance. We are sold for sin, and sold under sin; Jesus Christ has wrought out a redemption for us, and proclaims redemption for us, and proclaims redemption to us, as so He is truly the Redeemer.(See Job 19:25-27)
Yes he did. He said that in order for everybody to be forgiven for things they had done, or would do in future, or might do, he needed to be killed horribly. That wasn’t the deal beforehand, so that’s the rules changing.
I asked this before from another person: we are reading the Bible i don't mind you using scripture as a reference to support your assertion. :-)
No a perfect sacrifice was the deal from the beginning. Genesis 4:3,4 talk about the offerings to God, Moses gets the offerings as well(Leviticus 4). No blemish, first born. Even Job sacrificed for him and his kids (Job 1:5) It would require a man to conquer sin (Romans 5:12-18) and that man is Jesus Christ. Just because we learn about it (Christ sacrifice for our sins) later does not mean it was not always there. To answer your question of "why" is because they never did change.
I’ll say that in general somebody who behaves well under pressure will behave well otherwise.
I truly understand what you are saying. We can't make a blanket assumption for everyone, everywhere throughout eternity.
The link i was attempting to make was for your comment about God showing off. If we could only do this in person it goes so much easier that way. :-D
But the story of Job isn’t about that, is it?
Actually it is (the entire Bible has parts of this war), and yes you could view them as collateral damage. The question now is "how is this about war?" See Satan has a beef with God, and there has been a war going on since Genesis 3. Well it probably started before that but it's all i got. Satan hates us(man) and wants us dead (without Christ). He does not want people worshipping God. As a Christian i realize that i am in the middle of a war. Paul knew it very well when he was writing to Timothy (2 Timothy 2:3) and the Ephesians (Ephesians 6:12). Now our hearts could be peace-loving(you might be that way) or warlike(that's me) it makes no difference, we can't escape this war. The options we have are to fight or be mowed down as a civilian casualty. Job decided to fight. Yes it was hard, but he keep to the faith, he did not retreat to cursing God and dying like so many wanted him to.
They aren’t dead because they were just there when somebody else did something wrong.
Yes they are Satan did this. He's the one that killed them.
They aren’t dead because they couldn’t be saved
ReplyDeleteThey still could be saved (John 5:25). We just have to look past this realm. In the context of a person that believes in God and Jesus Christ, there are better things ahead(1 Corinthians 2:9). This cursed rock doesn't hold a candle to the splendour of Heaven.
I am enjoying this conversation, you have given me more things to think about, and hopefully it is helping me explain the belief of one Christian better. Thanks for your time. You know i wanted to ask what was the phrase you got that made you laugh hysterically, but then i don't think it should be repeated.
It isn't morally wrong to shout at the computer, is it? It isn't a bad thing to yell abuse at the internet?
Matthew 12:36 :-D
Something off topic:
I don't read this as an argument or debate. It's a conversation or discussion about each others beliefs. I really do edit and re-edit my posts to try to make them not come across as i'm trying to argue or debate with anyone. I am passionate about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ because it's the truth and life to me. (Also it's an order from above. Mark 16:15) If it wasn't i wouldn't even bother talking to anyone. I know this is a tough topic to discuss. Both sides have far reaching implications. You and others here are helping me to understand more about a non-believers view of The Holy Bible, and for that i am thankful.
Have a good one.
I'm moving this month and a bit behind on the reading and will probably fall further behind before, hopefully, catching up. Job is fascinating though and I agree that it's well written (especially compared to some of what we've waded through).
ReplyDeleteThis story is fascinating. I've heard it referenced a couple of times but not nearly as much as Abraham. At least they gave Abraham a choice rather than just killing off his kids and livestock.
If God, who does seem to be palling around with Satan, is able to give parameters to Satan, even if this wasn't God's doing, He still signed off on it. This is one of those passages that makes me imagine how wonderful spending eternity with Him must be...