Proof

I've been asked by many people over the years, most recently by commenter Edward what proof would I need to accept that the Christian god, or any god actually exists.
Well, I'll tell you, kind of.

Back in collage I took a class where religion and atheism were compared.  We discussed this question frequently amongst ourselves.  Everyone pretty much agreed that if Jesus descended from the skies on a beam of light for all the world to see that would be enough proof.  But we are taught that the lord does not work in such garish ways.  He's not going to show himself in public.  We just have to have faith.

So I thought, If god won't show himself to the masses anymore (he was constantly showing up unannounced in the OT), would he give me a "personal" sign of his existence?  If so, I'm sure he would allow me to pick my proof because I would have to know the sign beforehand so that I knew it was God contacting me.

So I set out to create a set of rules.
1) I had to rule out mental illness as a possibility so it would have to be verifiable by others.  Others would have to be able to see the sign but not need know what it meant.
2) It would have to be something  very personal.  Something only I would understand as a sign.
3) It would have to be something that occurred in the the natural world.  The sun couldn't "dance in the sky", the trees couldn't start talking and the  stars in the night sky could spell out BRUCE IS AWESOME (although that would be nice, and true).
4) I can't tell anyone what that sign would be to rule out the possibility that someone would try to trick me into believing.

I have my sign and have been waiting almost 25 years for a higher power to show it to me.
If/When I see it I will spend the rest of my life trying to convince the rest of the world that they need to praise this god as well.

Atheists, what proof do you require?  Did you believe and now you don't?  Do you have a plan?  Is mine sound?

Believers, What made you believers?  Did you have an experience that changed you?  Could you apply the above rules to your experience?    Are those rules even relevant to your faith?

A Little More About Me

The first part of this thread can be found here.

When we last saw young Bruce, he was becoming enlightened regarding the psuedo-scientific world of UFOs, Big Foot, ESP and ghosts.  His mom was happy, for  a while anyhow.

She had taught our hero that, as Carl Sagan said (actually attributed toMarcello Truzzi), "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

The only problem was I started questioning religion.
As I said earlier when I was in Catholic grade school, I was an alter boy.  Before then I would sit in the pew during mass and recite the mass to myself.  I knew it word for word.  When I got to stand at the alter for the first time, my excitement turn quickly to confusion.  I saw that the entire mass was written out on cards under glass.  While serving mass, I would fixate on the priest and watch as he read the mass from the cards, rarely looking up.  I noticed other priests did the same thing.

But I digress.  I started asking adults the obvious questions a kid would ask.
"If he existed forever, what was God doing before he created everything?"
"If you have to know God to get into heaven, what happens to the people who never had the opportunity to know God?  Amazon natives and such."
"Can astronauts see Heaven from the Moon?" The Apollo missions were going strong when I was in grade school.

And I started asking the smart ass, critical thinking questions that got angry stares from the nuns at school and annoyed my mom so much.
"If Thor, Odin and Asgard (I read the Thor comics as a kid) aren't real, how do we know Jesus, God and Heaven are real?"
"How could Noah fit all those animals in such a small boat?"
"What is a soul?  How is that different from a ghost?"

The answers I received most often were of course "God works in mysterious ways." "It's not our place to ask those questions." or simply "don't ask such stupid question."

These answers of course never work for inquisitive kids.  They just throw fuel on the fire.

In fifth grade my english teacher Sister Madonna broke a yardstick over my back for poor writing (HA, I just misspelled writing!) while at the blackboard.  That pretty much sealed my disenchantment with the Catholic Church (for the record, all the other nuns and priests that I've known have been very kind, pleasant people.  Sister Mary Ann, my collage film professor is my favorite teacher, ever.)
Between the "lazy" priest serving mass, the non-answers about God and the evil nun, organized religion had no appeal.

But I still believed in God.

To be continued...

Deuteronomy 16-18

Deuteronomy 16-18

Deuteronomy 16-18 Skeptics Annotated Bible

Chapter 16 is more rehashing
Chapter 17 tells us that a king will be installed once the Israelites settle in the promised land.
Chapter 18 reminds us to kill witches and others associated with occult like things.

Most interestingly, we also learn that God will raise a prophet up from these people.  Am I wrong or is this is the first solid reference/predication of Jesus (to the believers that is)?
Us Atheists like to call that retro-fitting.  ;-)

Edit: I meant to say force-fitting, not retro-fitting Jesus into the story.

Deuteronomy 13-15

Deuteronomy 13-15

Deuteronomy 13-15 Skeptics Annotated Bible

We start off (again) with God commanding that any one that follows another god should be put to death.
A sharp contrast from the teachings of Jesus wouldn't you say?
On some level I can understand why God is being so tough on his chosen people.  The forty years in the desert have been like a bootcamp to toughen them up.  But I can't for the life of me reconcile the homicidal jealousy that keeps coming through.  Every time I read this I visualize a violent husband beating and then consoling his battered wife.  Sick stuff.

I maybe getting ahead of the reading, but I wonder if Jesus "went rogue" and was actually working against the God of Abraham.  Perhaps he was the rebellious son of God and started teaching Peace, Love and Understanding to piss off his dad.  ;-)

Chapter 14 gives us a rehash of the Levitican laws but goes into much greater detail.  Evidently Rabbits are unclean because they chew cud.  And bats are birds (I think we can cut God some slack for thinking a bat is a bird, right?).

I found 14:26 interesting in that it allows lusting after things and intoxicating beverages.
 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth.

Chapter 15 gives us a review of the seventh year forgiveness plan.

Deuteronomy 10-12

Deuteronomy 10-12

Deuteronomy 10-12 Skeptic Annotated Bible

We get more recapping of past events and more orders from God for the Israelites to kill everyone they come in contact with.
God also repeats the need to fear and obey him, or else.  And stay away from those other, inferior gods.

Deuteronomy 4-6

Deuteronomy 4-6

Deuteronomy 4-6 Skeptics Annotated Bible

I'm probably wrong but 4:36 says;
"Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire."
seems to be the first instance of God being in Heaven.  I'm sure someone can set me the straight on this.

This seems to be a rewriting of history.  5:5 says;
I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount
But weren't the Israelites warned that if they got near the mountain, they would be consumed in fire?

Lucky us!  We get another rewording of the ten commandments at 5:11

God endorses graffiti at 6:9;
And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


We end with another command to OBEY and FEAR the LORD.  Why is fear still necessary?

Deuteronomy 1-3 Oh, The Good Old Days

Deuteronomy 1-3
I'm going to also link to the Skeptics Annotated Bible for this book.  Just for yucks.
Deuteronomy 1-3

As the Israelites get closer to the promised land, Moses reminisces about the past forty years on the road.

I imagine him as a grandfather with his grand kids sitting on the floor around his La-Z-Boy.

"Did I ever tell you kids about the war?  Back in my day we didn't just conquer a nation.  We would kill every man, woman and child, burn the homes and crops and then have our way with the cattle!  Ah, the good old days."

Related articles

• Super-Abridged Bible: Deuteronomy (anadder.com)

Numbers 5-9 God and the Levites

Numbers 5-9

God gives more rules to the Levites.

"Oh, did I mention?  Keep the Sabbath."

Numbers 1-4 The Counting Begins

Numbers 1-4

We're starting book 4!
I'm going to set an aggressive reading schedule so we can get thru this quickly
Monday - 1-4
Tuesday - 5-9
Wednesday - 10-14
Thursday - 15-19
Friday - 20-25
Saturday - 26-30
Sunday - 31-36

This is were I lost interest last year when I tried to read the Bible on my own.  I'm much more motivated to read on thanks to this blog and the commenters.

God is preparing the Israelites for war.  All the tribes take a census to determine the number of males eligible to serve in the army except for the Levites, who are the priestly cast.
Numbers is very much about numbers!

Genesis 4-7 Adam and Eve Start a Family

After screwing up a good thing in Eden, Adam and Eve start the human race.  But it doesn't start off that well.
This also marks the start of the Bible's favorite past time, LONG list of names and ages.

I'm really excited about all the conversation going on here but, I love to get some input from Christians and others of faith.  If you know anyone that may be interested, please send them here.

Todays question is: Do these near endless lists of names give any credibility to the Bible as an historical document (not necessarily the word of god but as a census of sorts)?

The Plan

I've been asked what my plan is for accomplishing this onerous task.  Does making it up as I go along count as a plan?  But seriously folks, my 'plan' is simply to read the King James Bible.
I will post the days reading the night before, and post the sections for the entire week on Sunday evening.

As stated earlier,  hopefully others will want to join me and contribute their thoughts in the comments section.  I expect all comments to be civil and relevant to the days readings.  When we reach the end of a book, I'll create a post for a general discussion on it.

An Introduction and an Explanation

A 2008 survey showed that 76% of Americans identified themselves as a member of the Christian faith.  To say that their faith has an influence on the daily running of this country would be an understatement.
But, which flavor of Christianity do you prefer?  Catholic, Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Jehovah's Witness, Methodist?  The options are quite extensive. 1*.

The one thing they do have in common (other than a belief in the divinity of Jesus, of course) is the Holy Bible.  But then again we have the issue/problem that there are many versions.  Logos Bible Software lists over 40 versions.  The first widely available bible was the King James Version. 2*.  First published in 1604, it continues to be one of the most influential.  Although the English Standard Version is very popular today, The King James Bible has arguably had a greater influence, and frankly makes for a better blog title.

Which brings me to my goal; I, Bruce Critelli,  plan to read the bible in one year - and you're invited to read along.
If you don't own a paper copy, you can read the King James Version here; the English Standard Version here.  You can also read the Skeptics Annotated Bible here.

I'll be reading the Logos Bible for the iPhone.  They have broken the Bible up into 365 easily digestible sections.  Each section will only take a few minutes a day to read.  You could read an entire week's worth in well under an hour.

I'll post the upcoming reading at the beginning of every week and in a daily post.  When I'm inspired, I'll throw in a question to spark conversation.

This brings me to my next point.  I'm not totally sure where this project will go once it starts but, I want to at least get people to actually read the Bible.  Many people say they read or have read the Bible, but once  you ask them a few questions about its contents, these claims turn out to be mostly false.

We'll be starting on January 1, 2011 with Genesis 1-3.

* I use Wikipedia as a starting point for information.  While it is a good resource, it should not be used as an infallible source.