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Exodus 19-20
The Lord "shows himself" to the Israelites.
God then gives us the Commandments and directions on how to build stuff.
The whole episode on/around Mt. Sinai seems almost comical to me reading it as a man living in the 21st century. I see Moses, Aaron and Jethro (who conveniently left earlier in the story) concocting a plan to reinforce their status as leaders of the Israelites.
Moses: "The people are getting restless. I think we're dead men if they stopping believing we have God's ear."
Aaron: "I think we should make a break for it at night. I know a guy in Midian who can put us up for a few days."
Jethro: "Relax guys, These people will be building shrines to you if you do what I say.
Here's what we do; I'll say I'm heading out to start my own tribe, but I'll really just go up to the top of that mountain over there. Aaron you get a bunch of dried grass and wood and spread it around the mountain.
Moses, the next time it looks like a bad storm is coming, you go up the mountain and "talk to God", come down and tell the people God is coming to talk to them but that they can't get to close or they'll die. And tell them to wash up, man they stink! Any way, when it starts to storm, Aaron you light the brush on fire, I'll blow this soccer horn and talk in a really deep voice. Moses, just play along."
The Ten Commandments (depending on how you break them out) start off with rules on worshipping God and are very explicit. I can see how some modern religious sects interpret the graven images law as "Do not create art".
God then seems to gloss over the most important laws that are fundamental to a social order. Killing Stealing, Lying, Adultery. Could they have been inserted much later, like the U.S. Constitutions amendments?
The last commandment, while important to a healthy society seems to be there as a way to have people accept there place in the tribe (Be happy with what you have).
I believe we'll see them again later.
Exodus 20:26 - What is with this God and nakedness? He seems more than merely squeamish about it - first Ham's punishment for seeing Noah naked and now the "no nakedness near my altar" rule. Yet this is, arguably, the same God who created Adam and Eve with no mention of clothing. What gives?
ReplyDeleteThe first 10 commandments (the Torah gives us three versions) is an originally independent source, probably inserted by a late editor. Notice that this list of law is 1. NOT referred to as the Ten Commandments, and 2. Spoken by God, not written on tablets. Betcha never noticed that.
ReplyDeleteThe build-up to ascending the mountain in ch. 19 is a mix of E and J. We then get:
E's law (21-23, the "covenant code") plus some E narrative (24).
Some P law (25-31), including how to build your very own tabernacle.
The rest of E's stone tablet/golden calf narrative (32-33).
And finally, J's stone tablet narrative, including the 2nd "Ten Commandments".
But this list, the Ten Commandments explicitly written on stone tablets, explicitly labelled "The Ten Commandments", does NOT match ch. 20's decalogue, or Moses's recollection in Deuteronomy. Those match, and are the more familiar 10 C's. The weird list in ch. 34 is partially the same, but includes weird rules like "don't boil a kid in its mothers milk".
Deuteronomy's account is in fact a conflation of the Exodus narrative, referring to chapter 20's spoken law as the Ten Commandments found on the tablets in chapter 34.
Many times reading this, I get the impression that there are references being made that the original audience was expected to understand without further clarification, and that is why it is so confusing to us now. Like the nakedness part. Why make such an issue of of it, unless you were trying to set yourself apart from others. And I really believe that Moses just did not like cream soup, which is why he prohibited seething a kid in its mother's milk. If I were making commandments, serving liver would be a sin.
ReplyDelete"serving liver would be a sin"
ReplyDeleteI'd second that, and Lima beans!
It is probably this kind of analysis that is getting you 8 comments across your last 3 posts.
ReplyDeleteThis might have been mentioned previously but Jesus himself does affirm Moses as the author of the Pentateuch. Whether you believe Jesus or not is up to you but he certainly doesn't affirm the documentary hypothesis.
@Dani
ReplyDeleteGood question! It seems to me that the rules regarding what to wear must have been developed by man and then attempts were made to give them divine authorship. God seemed unbothered by our nakedness early on, why be bothered now?
@betterthanesdras, "Spoken by God, not written on tablets." Yes this list was spoken, and for good reason. If Moses went up to the mountain for 40 days and came back with these laws, then people would think he had made them up. By God speaking to the people directly, it would authenticate to them that God did give those commandments.
ReplyDelete@Barbara "...I get the impression that there are references being made that the original audience was expected to understand without further clarification,..." I am glade you brought this up. In Genesis 4:20-22; 10:12,14,25 Moses gives some extra detail about the family. hdauria pointed that out and i was reminded of it when betterthanesdras and i were talking about Reuel being the father-in-law of Moses and name conflicts. So this is a question to betterthanesdras as well as a reply to you.
betterthanesdras in your reading of the different sources did they every talk about this name change? In Genesis, like i pointed out, Moses provided a little more detail. Now seeing that Reuel/Jethro/Hobab would be around the people, as that he is family to Moses, he would have expected them to understand who Hobab/Jethro/Reuel was. Seeing the discussion that betterthanesdras,David, and i had on this leaves me with a stronger feeling that Moses did write these books. Seeing that any redactor would read over his work with a critical eye would he not "add a little more" info like in Genesis 4? In that part the people might have had some knowledge of the names, yet were not totally familiar with them, so a little more info was added? Yet in this part, from the single author perspective, they would naturally know who this person(s) was(were). Yet would not the redactor think this would bring distrust to the authenticity of this work and add some extra info? That person could also point to Genesis 4 as evidence that it was done in the past?
Those are just my thoughts.
@Brian
ReplyDeleteAre you talking to me? Because I actually have TEN comments on my blog. In total. It's a happening joint.
Jesus's opinion, or more specifically: the opinion given Jesus by an anonymous 1st century AD author, means nothing to me. Mosaic authorship is untenable. Not the least because of the fact that there is no evidence Moses actually existed. And nowhere in the Bible does it say Moses wrote the Torah. Even if the Torah appeared to be the work of a single author (it doesn't) there's no evidence that author was Moses.
Anyone notice in 19:5 God tells Moses "for all the earth is mine:" I guess this is where David got his line from Psalms 24:1 "The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."
ReplyDeleteNice
19:10,11 This is an interview with the Great Governor of the Universe. Smell good for it okay! :-D
Oh and here is something to consume more of your time. :-D
@Dani
"What is with this God and nakedness?"
That is a good question and it does strike as being strange. However we need to remember who we are dealing with. The Hebrews obviously came out of Egypt with allot of heathen rituals. In 32:1-4,25 we see that the people are worshipping their god and are naked. Now i have read that it was custom for people in the past to build their alters high up. They thought the higher the alter was, and the nearer heaven, the more acceptable the sacrifice was. This is why God is telling them to keep it low. He is more concerned with the heart of man than the alter that man created.
Now after reading the verses mentioned above, one could be lead to believe that there were some rituals when you would go up unto these alters that would have you shedding your cloths.
So for in this season keep the alter low and your cloths on.
I hope that helps.
@betterthanesdras
Wow your posts are allot more than mine. I get nothing but porn, viagra, and XXX vids. I don't visit or publish them. Oh ya and i also get stuff about post this to several wordpress sites. It's a big joke. I just went and checked, had to clean up half a dozen of those. My last comment was 11/10/10. So i am a dating site for the dead i guess!
@Barbara and @Chasia
ReplyDeleteLiver is outlawed, just wait for it. Chasia sorry no on the lima beans. :-D
Anyone notice in 19:5 God tells Moses "for all the earth is mine:" I guess this is where David got his line from Psalms 24:1 "The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein."
ReplyDeleteNice
19:10,11 This is an interview with the Great Governor of the Universe. Smell good for it okay! :-D
Oh and here is something to consume more of your time. :-D
@Dani
"What is with this God and nakedness?"
That is a good question and it does strike as being strange. However we need to remember who we are dealing with. The Hebrews obviously came out of Egypt with allot of heathen rituals. In 32:1-4,25 we see that the people are worshipping their god and are naked. Now i have read that it was custom for people in the past to build their alters high up. They thought the higher the alter was, and the nearer heaven, the more acceptable the sacrifice was. This is why God is telling them to keep it low. He is more concerned with the heart of man than the alter that man created.
Now after reading the verses mentioned above, one could be lead to believe that there were some rituals when you would go up unto these alters that would have you shedding your cloths.
So for in this season keep the alter low and your cloths on.
I hope that helps.
@betterthanesdras
Wow your posts are allot more than mine. I get nothing but porn, viagra, and XXX vids. I don't visit or publish them. Oh ya and i also get stuff about post this to several wordpress sites. It's a big joke. I just went and checked, had to clean up half a dozen of those. My last comment was 11/10/10. So i am a dating site for the dead i guess!
@Brian, when does Jesus affirm Moses as sole author?
ReplyDeleteDoing some searching, both Matthew and Mark ascribe OT law to Moses. This makes sense; Moses was known as the law-giver.
ReplyDeleteThe example that stands out (shared by all 3 synoptic gospels: Mt. 22, Mk. 12, Lk. 20) is a story about Sadducees asking about marriage law. It's a reference to Deut. 25:5, which is part of the old Deuteronomic law code.
Luke (and Acts) makes several mentions of "Moses and the prophets", apparently a reference to the Torah and the Nevi'im (the Histories and Prophets, as collated by the Jews).
Luke 24 is explicit:
Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
The Gospel Ascribed to John has makes many mentions of Moses, but mostly references to stuff he did and said.
So... it seems Luke is the only one who really ascribed Mosaic authorship to the entire Torah.
And I don't trust Luke as far as I can throw him. His birth-story for Jesus is plainly fictitious. (The ridiculous, unhistorical census, for one.)
The SAB suggests that the prohibition for stepped altars was because of the skirt-like garments that people wore in that time, which would have "revealed their nakedness" as they were climbing the stairs, as people below could see up their skirts. I have no idea how much this is supported by real analysis though. (I read the SAB for convenience, but it doesn't go very deep most of the time).
ReplyDelete@betterthanesdras
ReplyDeleteMy comment about comments was directed at Bruce. Sorry for the confusion. It is incorrect to say there is no evidence Moses existed or that the Bible is silent on whether he wrote Torah. As I said a historical figure named Jesus identified Moses as author multiple times (@Leah): Mark 10:4-8 (J), Matt 8:4 (P), Mark 10:3 (D), and Mark 7:10 (E).
My comment about comments was directed at Bruce. Sorry for the confusion.
ReplyDeleteThat was my original thought, but Bruce has been getting 20-40 comments per post, and never mentions the docu hypo so I didn't understand the dig.
It is incorrect to say there is no evidence Moses existed or that the Bible is silent on whether he wrote Torah.
It is correct to say there is no evidence Moses existed. Because: there is no evidence Moses existed.
As I said in my post just above, Moses is assumed to have written the law. I don't know if "law" would equate to "the entire torah". I guess it could, given what Luke says.
But if we take the synoptic Gospels as saying Moses wrote Genensis-Deuteronomy, that doesn't mean he actually did. It just means that the 1st century Christians who wrote the Gospels believed Moses did. It seems to be mentioned offhand as common knowledge.
And no, I don't think we can assert that the historical Jesus said any such thing. I don't trust the gospels were authentic eyewitness accounts for a bajillion reasons I'm sure we'll get into later on.
@Brian - your comment persuaded me to stop lurking and finally post something...or at least introduce myself to everyone since I'm not sure what to add to this particular thread. But just b/c people don't comment doesn't mean people aren't reading. I am so happy this project is happening. I am amazed by the level of discussion - both its intelligence and its civility (the modern political arena could learn a thing or two from all of you!) - and feel privileged that I can learn from all of you. Yes, all of you!
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on the current chapters - so many rules about so much minutiae (and it just continues on, doesn't it?) and yes, @Esdras, I did notice the absence of tablets. So where does that convention come from? Do we get to it later? (My mind instantly goes to Mel Brooks in History of the World dropping the third tablet) I had also wondered about the Jethro/Reuel thing earlier - thanks for highlighting it.
Lastly, textual analysis aside, it does seem like circular logic to stay that Moses wrote the first books b/c later in the same book it says he did.
So where does that convention come from? Do we get to it later?
ReplyDeleteYep, the tablets appear in E's story (ch. 32) where their content is not directly stated, and in J's version, (ch. 34) where they contain an unfamiliar ten laws.
Next time they want to put the 10 Commandments on a courtroom wall, they should use the correct version! I hope our laws soon reflect the correct moral position on boiling beef in milk.
So where does that convention come from? Do we get to it later?
ReplyDeleteGod mentions that everything will be written down on tablets in the next few chapters.
@Brian
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you're not enjoying my posts. I like to inject humor (or attempt to) into my writing.
As for my analysis of the readings, please remember I'm an Atheist and don't accept that one man, wrote the first five books of Bible.
Just because Jesus believed that Moses wrote them doesn't make it true. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is the word of God.