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Exodus 3-5
God comes unto Moses in the form of a burning bush and lays out his game plan to him.
But, Moses seems to be a reluctant prophet and it takes some convincing from The Lord in the form of some magic tricks.
Things don't go that well for the Israelites after Moses and Aaron talk to Pharaoh and the Israelites aren't very happy with the brothers.
My question today is:
"Why does God come up with a plan to free his people that causes them more grief?"
Bonus question:
Why doesn't God just go with genocide, like he's done in the past and kill the Egyptians?"
Extra special bonus question(s):
"Why didn't the all knowing God know that Moses did not circumcise his son? And why would he then try to kill his chosen prophet?"
I think by now we can quite calling this God "all knowing".
Does anyone else think of Mr Deity when reading about God in the first part of Exodus? :-)
ReplyDeletewww.mrdeity.com
Bruce, I always think of Mr. Deity.
ReplyDeleteI think the story could not have had the Egyptians slaughtered, because by the time the tale was written, there were obviously Egyptians still around.
And the bit about the magic tricks makes me think of Charlton Heston in "The Ten Commandments" Moses and the priest both turned their staffs into snakes, but Moses' staff was a REAL snake. I wish James Randi had been there.
About making things worse: I don't think that back then people expected good things to happen just because god loved them. There wasn't a well-structured reward/punishment system where you got nice things for being good. Gods were capricious and unpredictable--a lot like the weather.
God's plan does involve offering mercy for the Egyptians. They are given several opportunities to repent of their pagan worship, believe the true living God and let the Israelites go before the firstborn dies.
ReplyDeleteAny time mercy is offered there is opportunity for the innocent to suffer. If genocide had been prescribed immediately, then some could chide, "some loving God."
I'm not sure why you equate the action over circumcision with an absence of knowledge.
@Bruce
ReplyDeleteI am going to deal with today's, then go catch up on yesterdays.
"Why does God come up with a plan to free his people that causes them more grief?"
Freedom is not free Bruce. And isn't that what people want from God. Always the easy way, no sacrifice on our part, make it easy for us God, You have the power... right? Yet where would we grow to trust Him if He always gave us the easy way out? (Psalms 7:1,Psalms 18:2,Nahum 1:7,Romans 10:12,13) We would not know what trouble would be if He always made it easy. Trust is proven good or bad when it is tested right?
"Why doesn't God just go with genocide, like he's done in the past and kill the Egyptians?"
Keep reading we get more "genocide" later. Here God is using Pharaoh as an example to those to come after him. The book of Jeremiah comes to mind, but we will get to that. If He did just wipe them out, where would the corroboration of the salvation of Gods people by His mighty hand be? And where would the character development and trust the people will need to have for God be formed?
"Why didn't the all knowing God know that Moses did not circumcise his son? And why would he then try to kill his chosen prophet?"
He did know, that's why He meet him. This was a family issue it would seem. Moses wife Zipporah was against the circumcision of her son. She was not a Hebrew but a Midianite (2:16-22) . As you read when she preformed it she then called Moses a "bloody husband"(4:25,26). God knows how to get our attention, and He knew how to get Zipporah's. Moses as a Hebrew had violated the covenant that God had made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10). God wanted Zipporah to be there when He addressed this violation. It was most likely because of Moses love for his wife and her refusal of it that he neglected this duty of the covenant. And a sign for us that love and obedience to God overrides everything else.(Romans 6:16, best example of obedience Philippians 2:8).
He's still "All Knowing" ;-)
It seems to me that a simple " by the way Moses - ALL of your sons need to be circumcised!" would have been a far less melodramatic route than trying to kill him in front of his wife. This paragraph seems to be an insertion to me, anyone have any insight into which of the texts (J, E, etc) it is attributed to?
ReplyDeleteWhy did god appear in a burning bush this time instead of the way he appeared to the other Patriarchs in the past? Why have we moved to a new fear of seeing him face to face with Moses that didn't occur with Noah or Abraham for example?
ReplyDeleteI think the story could not have had the Egyptians slaughtered, because by the time the tale was written, there were obviously Egyptians still around.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason I don't buy this is that God apparently has the power to kill some people and not others. Why not just *start* with the killing of the firstborns? Or knock off all the guards one night so the Israelites can sneak off?
I'm also curious whether the "ten plagues" had any basis in Things That Actually Plagued Egypt. North America has certainly seen its share of locusts and boils. (What's with the river of blood, though?)
PS: I've heard before that the reason for the ten plagues was to give Pharaoh a chance to choose to do the right thing (i.e. "let the Israelites go") of his own free will. But I've also heard that God was responsible for Pharaoh *not* making that decision, or changing his mind about it. Which makes no sense to me: "I'm going to give you a chance to do the right thing! Oop, now I'm going to make you do the wrong thing! Repeat x10!"
ReplyDeleteIs there a less nonsensical explanation for why Pharaoh doesn't get it even after ten whole plagues? (Or am I way ahead of the reading by this point?) :)
Q: Why didn't the all knowing God know that Moses did not circumcise his son?
ReplyDeleteA: He did.
Unless you have never, ever held off acting on something you already knew until you thought the time was right to act on it, I don't know if you have any room to make this connection. Really, it seems that you're just biased in this question.
@Edward,
ReplyDelete"He did know, that's why He meet him. This was a family issue it would seem. Moses wife Zipporah was against the circumcision of her son."
Great explanation. Thanks.
@Rhology,
I stand corrected.
This is my first time posting a comment, but I've read through most of the previous posts and found them really interesting.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I have thought in response to a lot of comments about how God could let something happen - such as his people being imprisoned in Egypt - if he is a loving, covenantal God, is: If you read the Bible in light of Genesis 1, which says that God created man, then how can you argue with how he treats man? There are verses later in Jeremiah and in Romans that allude to this idea, but basically, if I'm the creator of something, I have every right to do whatever I want with it. If I write a book and want to rip it to pieces, who would condemn me for that?
That doesn't address the whole issue, I realize, but it's just something I've been thinking about.
As a Christian, the most comforting part of this passage to me is the following (in the English Standard Version): "I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land..."
Additionally, I think it will be somewhat clear when we get to the passages about the ten plagues, but there is really no reason to think that there weren't Egyptians who were spared when the angel of death came. God was merciful in giving them a chance (several, actually) to repent.
@Dani
ReplyDelete"I'm going to give you a chance to do the right thing! Oop, now I'm going to make you do the wrong thing! Repeat x10!"
(I Kings 19:11,12)
Have you ever felt like you should do something and you don't? God was dealing personally with Pharaoh. I can see where God was speaking to Pharaoh and telling him to let the people go. But Pharaoh would not because he hardened his heart. And that would be a result of God speaking to him. He most likely had others in his court that was telling him not to let the people go as well (I Samuel 6:6).
Now you would say why didn't God just not say anything? Because God wanted Pharaoh to know who he was really dealing with. Not wanting to leave it to guessing later, but after the people are gone, and his hosts destroyed, Pharaoh, hopefully, had many of nights thinking about the dual voices that he had heard. Had he listened to the still small one, his people would have been better off as well as himself. Yet now his military is smaller, his first born son is dead and gone, and he suffered the losses along the way. History now bears record; Pharaoh king of Egypt defied the God of the Hebrews and lost, don't you expect different results. The word didn't get out fast enough for some, as we shall read.
@Barbara: I was totally thinking of James Randi at that part too! It kind of reminded me of Randi's replication on TV of the tricks that the psychic surgeons use. But Randi totally would have put the Egyptian magicians to shame. I can just hear him saying to the Egyptian court "Duh! This is not a miracle, folks!"
ReplyDelete@Bruce @ Barbara: When we read the early Genesis chapters I had to go rewatch some Mr. Deity episodes for full appreciation. Brilliant.
@Feris @Edward
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how you can make the claim that god offers the Egyptians the chance to repent when he says "I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21) Not: "I know he won't believe you, so I'll have to visit some plagues on him." This really seems to put a dent in all the "free will" arguments too. And I'm extremely trouble by the killing of the firstborn. If god has a problem with Pharaoh & the adult Egyptian, why not kill them. This killing of the innocent is seriously messed up.
It does seem, as you've stated Edward, that god want to make an example of Pharaoh, but to me this seems like the actions of a mob boss, not a loving god. Particularly, since it would seem, Pharaoh really doesn't have a choice.
Whats more, we've already been told that for the last several hundred years, god has been reaching out exclusively to the descendants of Abraham. So, the Egyptians are just supposed to abandon their ancient religious traditions because Moses says so?
@bethg
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree. Why does God need to harden the heart of pharaoh? Maybe the pharaoh would've let the Israelites go after the first or second plague, but he's not really given the option.
The tenth plague of the killing of all first born children is definitely troubling. We can maybe get an interesting bit of insight into how the authors and their audience may have looked at this event from differences in the translation of Exodus 1:22.
ReplyDeleteThe oldest Hebrew text that exists (which is still fairly late) has Pharaoh saying "Every son that is born, you shall cast into the river. . ." while Greek and Aramaic translations have the addition "Every son that is born to the Hebrews. . ." So the to the Hebrews part may have been left out intentionally and added in translation, or maybe purposely removed at some point by a scribe or editor.
In any case, it has been suggested that the version where Pharaoh doesn't distinguish between Hebrews and Egyptians was intended to paint Pharaoh as acting rashly and possibly foreshadowing the tenth plague or even bringing it on himself by his carelessness.
I am starting to enjoy reading this. This was the first time that God was really an active character in a story. I think this story will have a little more action than some of those in Genesis, and hopefully not too many genealogies.
ReplyDelete@bethg
ReplyDeleteGod does harden Pharaoh's heart but it does it with a chance and opportunity humble himself. The whole Egyptian way of life is based on their polytheism and for Moses to strut on in and say the true God wants you to submit means that Pharaoh and the whole of Egypt will have to confess that their religion is a falsehood.
Telling the supreme overlord of all the earth that he's not so fantastic and needs to follow a dirty Hebrew is pretty humiliating. Moses is going to give me a chance to follow the true God? Fat chance. So while God does extend him mercy, that mercy works a hardening in Pharaoh's heart and he attempts to strengthen his own position and power of the Israelites.
You don't abandon your religion just because Moses says so, but by the time you've suffered boils, hail, locusts and darkness at the word of Moses, well maybe there is something to this God he keeps talking about and maybe I better not spit in the wind.
There are verses later in Jeremiah and in Romans that allude to this idea, but basically, if I'm the creator of something, I have every right to do whatever I want with it. If I write a book and want to rip it to pieces, who would condemn me for that?
ReplyDeleteSo if one creates a child, it's perfectly okay to, say, strangle it to death?
while Greek and Aramaic translations have the addition "Every son that is born to the Hebrews. . ."
Very interesting! My annotated bible doesn't mention that, but it does mention an example of Masoretic Text omission in the weird story of God attacking Moses. The Masoretic text, and the KJV, do not actually mention "Moses" at all in the story. My bible actually inserts "Moses" into the verse, so I'm assuming his name is present in the Septuagint. (Wishing I could read Greek about now.)
This paragraph seems to be an insertion to me, anyone have any insight into which of the texts (J, E, etc) it is attributed to?
Friedman says J. But (unlike him) I think J liberally salted his writing with outside sources. I think this story, a folk-explanation for an obscure phrase, was inserted from some other source. It doesn't even mention Moses! Okay, it does mention his wife, who is mentioned by name all of three times in the Bible. Who knows.
"basically, if I'm the creator of something, I have every right to do whatever I want with it. If I write a book and want to rip it to pieces, who would condemn me for that?"
ReplyDeleteSure, the creator may have the right to treat his creations as badly as he wants to, but that certainly shows that he's not an all-loving god.
@bethg
ReplyDelete"but to me this seems like the actions of a mob boss, not a loving god"
Please give me a definition of "loving" and how it applies to God.
@bananacat1 as well:
And where does the idea that God is all loving come from? Do you have any references? I have a strong feeling that it is being taking out of context.
@bethg i am going to comment to both yours and @David's responses.
This is how i see the loving God:
God listens and sees His people (Exodus 3:7,9; Galatians 3:29), He calls them His son, even His firstborn (Exodus 4:22,23; John 1:12; Revelation 21:7). Now this is personal, this is family.
So the Almighty has His son being afflicted by Pharaoh and the Egyptians. So here is a battle to come.
On one side you have Egyptians and Pharaoh:
The Egyptians see Pharaoh as being a demi-god, so i am sure this feeds the pride of Pharaoh. Pharaoh himself says "Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go. (Exodus 5:2).
On the other side you have God and the Hebrews:
The Hebrew people heard that the Lord had visited the children of Israel, they believed and worshipped. (4:30,31)
So God is going to free His son, do you really think that Pharaoh is going to just let them walk out without a fight? God knows how Pharaoh is going to respond, and He informs Moses in 4:23 on how far this is going to go. This is His son He is going to rescue again... right?
"Why does God need to harden the heart of pharaoh? Maybe the pharaoh would've let the Israelites go after the first or second plague, but he's not really given the option."
Try to see it this way. @Faris touches on this as well. God knows that what He is going to do is going to harden Pharaohs heart. Why? Well like Faris said who is Moses to walk into Pharaohs court and tell him that the Lord God of Israel has ordered him to let His people go? (5:1)? The hardening of the heart is Pharaoh saying i don't know your God, i am the closes thing to a god around here and i am not going to listen to you. To Pharaoh the God of the Hebrews does not exists. Hardness level stage 1.
It's like me saying i am going to go harden bethg and Davids heart by telling them "you need to trust in Jesus Christ, repent from your sins, and follow His way to live." You would most likely say "ya right, whatever freak!" You have hardened your heart like i said you would. Your hard heart is you using your free will to reject and refuse what God wants. (II Peter 3:9) I hope this example helps explain hard heart.
The hardening of Pharaohs heart is not like God poured some quickrete over Pharaohs heart or took away his free will, Pharaoh always had it, what the hardening is, is one of Pharaoh having to take orders from a God that he knows nothing of. In his mind he is the closest thing to a god. Yes God is going to show signs yet Pharaohs magicians are going to do similar, which helps Pharaoh harden his heart even more. The first few signs are all things that his magicians can do, albeit on a smaller scale, so that is nothing new. God has to take Pharaoh and the Egyptians past those. As we read watch how far it goes before the magicians run out of steam. God is going to take Pharaoh and the Egyptians to a state of understanding that He is One that is totally different than their gods and infinitely more powerful.
And as a sign if you think you have power over my son I will give you many chances to repent, yet in the end I will judge you and My judgement is just (John 5:30).
@Edward
ReplyDeleteI think what I hear you saying is that the very existence of a god - other than pharaoh himself, is what caused his heart to be hardened. Not that god actively intervened in hardening it. Am I interpreting you correctly?
Hi Bruce,
ReplyDeleteI am a little surprised in your biased questions. You set these questions (on Exodus 3-5) up to put Jewish and Christians to answer on the defense.
But...anyway...time to move on...I am answering your questions from bottom to top:
Q:
Why didn't the all knowing God know that Moses did not circumcise his son? And why would he then try to kill his chosen prophet?
A: The first part...I would need an exact verse that says He did not know...I do answer this a few lines down however.
Apparently God was angry with Moses for having failed to keep the divine command given to Abraham in Genesis 17. But Moses' life is spared when his wife circumcises the child bringing the divine command back to Moses. Sounds like God knew his son was not circumcised to me which is why God went after Moses.
Q:Why doesn't God just go with genocide, like he's done in the past and kill the Egyptians?"
A: Which genocide do you speak of?
Also...God does kill Pharaoh and his army followers (that whole sea thing coming up) God did not kill all off back in Egypt. Pharaoh was not letting his people follow Gods law so He spared the lives of those who were a victim of Pharaohs rule on both sides.
Q: Why does God come up with a plan to free his people that causes them more grief?
A: What was Gods plan that caused grief? Do you speak of slavery? If it is slavery then remember what God said at the Burning Bush...Pharaoh is oppressing them...not God. God is there to rescue them.
@David
ReplyDeleteNot only the "existence of a god" but one that would dare tell him (Pharaoh) what to do. So yes i think we are reaching a mutual understanding of "harden his heart".
@Tom,
ReplyDeletemy questions are biased (a subjective term) because I'm an Atheist, a non-believer. I'm reading the Bible as a historical documentary that has little-to-no provable historical information. If believers want to show us that God is real and the Bible is a divine document, the burden of proof is on the believers.
As Carl Sagan famously stated "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
Also, I believe that I and almost all the commenters have been extremely civil and the discussions have been very open and educational for both sides.
I actually never expected this to be the case with such disparate viewpoints! :-)
As for your other comments.
1. God's attack on Moses was clarified in an earlier comment and I agree with the commenter (as do you).
I should have phrased my question "Why did God choose that moment to confront Moses and why did he try to kill him instead of pointing it out and asking Moses to circumcise his son ASAP? Moses is already a very fragile prophet and certainly didn't need the extra stress!
2. Which genocide? Take your pick. The flood or Sodom and Gomorrah.
3. From the reading, God knowingly hardened Pharaoh's heart against the Israelites and when God/Moses/Aaron asked for the release of their people, Pharaoh increased the burden.
@momof atheists: this burning bush is a hint that the canaanite war god, Baal, is one of the few deities that have been incorporated together to make this one god. The mountain and the flame were Baal's main symbols. The others gods were the babylonian gods Tiamat and Marduk, the battle between them being the origin for the babylonian version of the flood.
ReplyDelete