Posts
I guess "Thou shalt not kill." doesn't apply when God tells you to do the killing and raping of a country.
The Israelites kill thousands of Midianite men but Moses isn't happy until they go back and kill thousands more women and children. God tells them how to divide up the remaining women for slaves.
The Israelites don't lose one soldier in the battle so they donate their gold, silver and jewels to God.
God also gets 32 people as a tribute. What does that mean? Were they sacrificed? Slaves to the tabernacle?
I was disappointed that Balaam was killed. I thought he would survive after siding with the LORD. That would also help explain how the writers of Numbers would have known what was going on in Canaan.
The cattle barons decide that the land they just conquered is good enough for them and they successfully bargain for it.
Chapter 33 gives us a great guide of the long journey from Egypt.
Here is one of the better maps showing a possible path. If anyone has a better visual aid please post.
How could the Israelites possibly have wandered for forty years in such a small space?
Could it just be a mis-translation for them being nomadic before settling?
We then get the nitty gritty on the boundaries of the promised land and how it will be divided up.
Map of territories
Chapter 35 gives us the Cities of Refuge and with them, some rules of law.
We end Numbers with the daughters of Zelophehad being forced to marry within their own tribe so the land of their father won't be inherited away from them.
Once again, as in Exodus, I was expecting a little more WOW when the book wrapped up. How about you?
Deuteronomy is next. I don't want to rush the last book of the Pentateuch so we'll take it over a period of 11-12 days.
Well @Bruce, you hit a lot of the high points already. Some additional thoughts:
ReplyDelete- the LORD mentions "... men ... from twenty years old and upward " repeatedly in Numbers (e.g. 32:11) ... was he trying to avoid prosecution for violating prevailing child labor laws?
- 33:55-56 more enforced dickishness from the big guy ("drive them out,or I'll vex you")
- Num 35 - are these early urban planning laws? Also, the treatment of slayers and revengers sounds like an eternal law. Where'd that get lost over the years?
- Num 36 - the enforced inbreeding ... what are we to make of this? Are they setting the standard for the Hapsburgs? That works for a while, until the deformities kick in.
A big second on asking what happens to the people who are given to God. It sounds like the animals are sacrificed, so what the hell happened to those 32 children?
ReplyDeleteI, also, would like to know what happens to those 32 people. The phrase "...the Lord's tribute" doesn't sound encouraging to me. I asked a Christian friend about it and she felt that they were probably killed. Which sounds suspiciously like human sacrifice to me.
ReplyDeleteMore likely the 32 girls became slaves for the priests and the Levites (note the priests and Levites are not part of the regular community nor among the soldier and so don't share in that portion).
ReplyDeleteNote that the killing of all the non-virgin women, unarmed men and boy children after the fighting was over should be sufficient bloodshed for most gods (or is it only human sacrifice when done on an altar?).
All P, except 32 which seems to be a mishmash of P and J (a phenomena limited to Numbers, it seems?)
ReplyDeleteCh. 31, generally horrific story- "You didn't kill the women! Now go back and kill the children and steal the virgins!" WHAT THE HELL. This is pretty horrible you guy.
Notice, though, we never see the order being executed. I'm thankful for that omission.
Why is Balaam unceremoniously killed by the Israelites? (And why was Balaam even with the Midianites?) Apparently some lines of tradition (including P) didn't like him as much as whoever compiled his oracles.
Balaam is also blamed for the events of ch. 25, which makes no sense. (Especially since both are P.)
32 is very interesting. It involves the relationship between the transjordan tribes (Reuben, Gad, 1/2 of Manasseh) and the rest of Israel.
It explicitly references ch. 13 & 14, which were other J + P texts. VERY interesting. I think these chapters may share a unique history.
This story seems almost a response to the ancient Song of Deborah, Judges 5, where the transjordan tribes DON'T help the other tribes.
I think I know why East Manasseh is left out of the story: in Judges 5, there is a tribe called Machir, which is possibly East Manasseh. (Machir is son of Manasseh, see end of ch. 32.) Machir DID help Israel in Judges 5, so Gad and Reuben are the only transjordanies who need a reprimand.
By far, the biggest surprise that I've learned so far is how many people Moses had executed. I already knew God wiped out the people a few times over, etc but I had no idea about Moses.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be great if we could honor his justice by displaying the laws he brought down in front of our courthouses?
Wow, that was horrifying to read. The female virgins are literally treated exactly the same as the sheep and donkeys. Even if this god were real, I would be better off not worshiping him. I mean, it's not just that they're slaves, but they're lower than or equal to actual animals, which is even lower than slaves. If I were in that position, I would be envious of the people who were murdered. I just can't imagine how bible apologists can rationalize this one, although I'm sure they'll figure out a way. Anyone who tries to defend this won't convert many non-believers; they'll only prove to us just how horrible biblical literalism will make you.
ReplyDeleteAs for the required in-clan marriage of women who inherit land, what happens if they are already married to a different clan when their father dies? Would they just be cut out of the inheritance altogether, or would have they have to divorce and remarry?
@bananacat1
ReplyDeleteYour comments beg the question, since God is not real why are you so upset about it? You seem to be treating it with much more significance than, say, a James Patterson book but I don't know why.
In a sense it seems like you wants answers, which I think is perfectly acceptable, but have said that there is no answer you will accept. So that doesn't seem to be a good faith gesture.
Several times so far I've seen people upset at God's supposed cruelty and it reminds me of what C.S. Lewis says in Mere Christianity: my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?...Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies.
A married woman would not inherit, since she belongs to her husband's clan, I think.
ReplyDeleteWhat I found most interesting was the rules for accidental homicide. Normally, people don't make laws about things that are not a problem, so the specific rules for avoiding being slaughtered by a family member of one you accidentally killed must have been important. Note that it is never suggested that the vengeance should be left to the Lord.
@Bruce
ReplyDeleteNo one is suggesting that precepts from James Patterson's books be used to govern our country, but there are some who use quotes from the bible to do so.
Next, we do not need arguments against God, but if God is going to be used as justification, there should be proof of God's existence.
@Bruce - you noted/asked "Once again, as in Exodus, I was expecting a little more WOW when the book wrapped up. How about you?"
ReplyDeleteI let that one breathe for a day or so. I guess Numbers had a definite enough closing curtain - but you're right, it wasn't climactic. I'm surprised that Numbers was as violent as it was - I don't remember this from 30+ years ago. @Vt Teacher - I was also impressed (horrified?) by the seemingly effortless way that Moses killed on behalf of the big guy.
I'm more and more conscious of the different threads woven throughout these books, so I guess I expect some redundancy or contradiction to come in the Deuteronomic texts. It's not as if these books are written with a clear voice - as you would in a thesis or (dog forbid) a software spec! It's still interesting stuff - but we still haven't crossed the passage (or passages) that establish the bona fides of Yahweh as a deity to be worshiped, or the OT as the inerrant word of that deity.
@Bruce,
ReplyDelete"God also gets 32 people as a tribute. What does that mean? Were they sacrificed? Slaves to the tabernacle?"
This means the Levites get 32 new hands to help them. No they were not sacrificed, no they are now bond-servants to the Levites.
"We end Numbers with the daughters of Zelophehad being forced to marry within their own tribe so the land of their father won't be inherited away from them."
No they were not forced, they could have quit their inheritance and married from a different tribe. Then the land would have went to their fathers brother.
@Skepticali,
ReplyDelete"Moses killed on behalf of the big guy."
Did Moses really kill for the "big guy" or because the Israelites had run into these people before and were lead into sin with them? Numbers 31:16 lays it out, these people had created problems before.
Also notice Balaam was mentioned as well, so i take it they had some exchanges with him, maybe that is how Moses knew the account of Balak calling for him to curse Israel.(22:5) At least it does establish a relationship with Balaam.
so I guess I expect some redundancy or contradiction to come in the Deuteronomic texts
ReplyDeleteI don't want to spoil it, but this won't be the case. Deuteronomy is unique in the Torah; it's source (the "Deuteronomist", in at least two iterations) is not present in the previous four books and there is no JE or P material to speak of.
@Barbara
ReplyDelete"there should be proof of God's existence."
What proof would you accept that there is a God?
I asked this question before and a person sent me to a list of evidence he would need.
Speaking of that list the first requirement
"Verified, specific prophecies that couldn't have been contrived." There are over 300 prophecies to the coming Messiah. All fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and they provide the confirmation of His credentials as the Messiah. I need to remember to point them out, i need to go check and make sure i haven't missed any.
You might have heard this before.
Now you can say that Jesus knew the prophecies and made it look like He was the Messiah, so let's take 8 of them that He could not control, if He were not God.
1. Place of birth
2. Time of birth
3. Manner of birth
4. Betrayal
5. Manner of death
6. People's reactions (mocking, spitting, staring, etc.)
7. Piercing
8. Burial
I will use the information provided by Professor Peter Stoner in his book Science Speaks:
However i have read it in The New Evidence that demands a verdict.
So with that eight the chances of any man that has lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17 [(10 to the 17th power). That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (17 zeros after the one). To get an idea on this number say you take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. I will blindfold you and give you the instruction that you can travel as far as you wish, however you must pick up the silver dollar that you had marked and declare "This is the right one!"
What chance do you think you have of getting the right one? I would say just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them according to their own wisdom. And remember this is just 8 of the 300+.
Also, on the unsatisfying ending to Numbers: This is even more perplexing when you know that this is the end of the P source, and possibly E (J continues into the Deuteronomical histories, not sure about E). So weird that P would end on random legislation. Speaks to a slow, unmanaged accumulation of documents. Or the editor cut the ending off.
ReplyDelete(Oh, don't ask me how J could seamlessly continue into the originally separate DH, which was compiled before the Torah. I haven't worked this out. I'm open to alternate theories.)
Wouldn't it be great if we could honor his justice by displaying the laws he brought down in front of our courthouses?
I believe courthouses should display the TRUE Ten Commandments, from Exodus 34. (I'd love to make a meme of that...)
@Skepticali,
ReplyDeleteAs i was making my way back up the page to read more comments i read yours over again and wanted to comment on this portion:
"we still haven't crossed the passage (or passages) that establish the bona fides of Yahweh as a deity to be worshiped"
Yes we have. Exodus 20:1-7. Or did i miss understand your statement?
@bananacat1,
ReplyDelete"what happens if they are already married to a different clan when their father dies?"
They would have known before they got married that if their father did not have a son and they married outside of the tribe, then the inheritance would go to her fathers brother. And these tribes were not 100 people, we saw the numbers they were large. So i don't think there would be much in breading. Granted the first example does sound to close for my comfort. :-D
I am really looking forward to your response to Brian.
@Abbi,
ReplyDelete"Balaam is also blamed for the events of ch. 25, which makes no sense. (Especially since both are P.)"
I am glad you are noticing this.
"It explicitly references ch. 13 & 14, which were other J + P texts. VERY interesting. I think these chapters may share a unique history."
Ya that "unique history" would be the single author Moses. I could be miss-reading you, however i think with your critical eye the problems with the DH is starting to show. However i could be wrong, i pray i'm not. :-D
The fact that P contradicts on Balaam doesn't make Mosaic authorship more likely (a single author contradicting himself isn't a better answer, especially if the author is supposedly omniscient and prophetic). It just means P can't be a monolithic block of text composed by one author... which is something few claim. It's obviously a pastiche of Aaronid Levite law, built around a polemic rewriting of JE.
ReplyDeleteIn our rereading I've nothing but affirmed my "faith" in the DH. I've also found a number of issues with Friedman's version of the theory.
But the basic thematic and stylistic rift between JE and P is, I believe, too obvious for anyone to deny. The unity of Deuteronomy and the books Joshua to Kings is impossible to deny.
The DH is a possible explanation for those facts. It's far from perfect, but pretty much any theory is better than "Moses wrote it", which is basically a theological claim taken on faith.
@Edward - I'm looking for the something that establishes Yahweh as the universal deity. It doesn't even have to be the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent one that I perceived as a believer. Ex 20 just says the this is God speaking these words. That's like me saying "I am Roger Goodell, Commissioner of all the NFL, and I proclaim that there will be football in 2011". I haven't established my bona fides - a close examination will uncover that I am just a working stiff with a nine-to-five job. Independent evidence doesn't support my claim.
ReplyDeleteEven if I believed in the supernatural, I would have concluded that Yahweh is a local force ... not global. He still is overly concerned with the children of Israel, while ignoring the Olmecs, the Australian aborigines, and people of Omicron Persei 8.
@Skepticali,
ReplyDeleteI see you mention Australian aborigines, so would you accept First Nations people, i read a historical account in One Church, Many Tribes about an Indian medicine man having a vision before they even had knowledge of white man and the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can post the story here if you are interested, i would need to get the book back from a friend that is borrowing it.
Also in scripture there is Egyptian Pharaoh in 2 Chronicles 23:20-22 where Necho the king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by Euphrates. Saying to Josiah "I come not against thee this day, but against the house wherewith i have war: for God commanded me to make haste". So God had revealed Himself to this king.
In Daniel 4 God makes Himself know to king Nebuchadnezzar and removes him from his kingdom to teach him that he is not as powerful and great as he thinks he is. see 4:29-33.
Then there is Jonah that was told to go warn Nineveh to repent or perish. God was reviling Himself to the Ninevites. The book of Jonah recounts that episode. Jonah needs to learn to forgive. You can see in this how Gods heart is for the good of man.(Ezekiel 18:23; II Peter 3:9) Also see Luke 11:30.
Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
I know i am missing allot more.
God did not ignore anyone, He has revealed Himself to all men.
Yet i ask what would you take as evidence that God is universal and not confined to a few areas on Earth?
Heck i see it that this project is another way of God revealing Himself to man. And i am happy to see so many people that are critical on the Holy Bible participating in this project. Their comments and input have helped me grow and understand scripture a whole lot more. And helped me become aware of areas of Biblical criticism that i need to study to be ready to give a good defence. (II Timothy 2:15; I Thessalonians 5:21)
So thanks to everyone for that gift.
@Edward,
ReplyDelete"Heck i see it that this project is another way of God revealing Himself to man. And i am happy to see so many people that are critical on the Holy Bible participating in this project.
Does this make me/us a prophet?!?! Awesome! Can I get a staff and robe?
:-)
Bruce,
ReplyDeleteYou make it all the way to Revelation and finish this project i will personally deliver a Staff and Robe to you. And it won't be some cheap staff and robe. :-D
@Edward,
ReplyDeleteI'm holding to that! The robe should be made of ram's hide. VIRGIN ram's hide!