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We start off with a refresher on what God did to the Egyptians. It's nice to reflect fondly on the good ol' days isn't it?
Psalm 107:15 kind of forgets about God punishing future genrations for the sins of their fathers.
Psalm 109 is written by one sick mofo. You know this guy got shit on by his co-workers and went home to plan their destruction (with God's help of course).
I remember some equally sick wacko putting out anti-Obama bumperstickers with this psalm number.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/109.html
@Bruce,
ReplyDeletePsalm 107:15 kind of forgets about God punishing future genrations for the sins of their fathers.
Sounds more like your forgetting something... ;-)
God shows mercy to thousands of them that love Him, and keep His commandments. Right?
Psalm 109.. one of my favourites. :-D
@Edward,
ReplyDeleteWhat am I forgetting? God deliberately punishes the innocent for the sins of their fathers.
I would be interested to see the ratio between God's killings and the number of people he showed mercy to!
Are you joking about 109 being one of your favorites? You have a dry sense of humor so it's hard to tell sometimes. ;-) If it is, why?
@Bruce,
ReplyDeleteI have been at a conference this week in the evenings, so i have not had time to get back to you. So right now i am going to address what you are forgetting.
First no one is innocent. For all have sinned, that is something you either forgot or never realized. Also we don't get to decide who's innocent or guilty. I'm including myself in that as well. :-)
Please reference a verse of God "punishing the innocent for the sins of their fathers". Remember no one is innocent. ;-) Did children suffer because of their wicked fathers? Yes they did! Was it because of their father? No! They suffered because they did not turn from their fathers wicked ways. Just do a word search for "And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, and followed the sins of"
Please read over again Deuteronomy 28, the whole chapter. Tell me if you notice anything. While i'm thinking about it, 28:12b stands out as good advice, something that in the past i didn't take to heart. :-)
Wow i missed this, i see you did give some references from my requests before this one. On observation i see your not to much with staying in context. :-)
Genesis 3:16 God curses women. I guess you take the curse as being "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;"? or "and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." :-) This is the correction for woman being rebellious and disobeying God's one command. Did she not eat from the tree as well? Also notice God cursed the serpent, and the ground. Adam and Eve were not "cursed" yet they were punished.
Genesis 38 Onan and Er are killed by God. Er for no reason other then "He was wicked in the site of the LORD". Now this is something, i do believe you want to position yourself as Supreme Ruler and Judge? I have to ask did the thought ever cross your mind that whatever Er did must have been something hideous? And about Onan, do i really need to go over this. Think rape. You know this does remind me to a show i just saw last week, who the BLEEP did i marry. If you get a chance watch it, Ana is suing her x's country for rape. How is that? Well it goes something along the line of false pretence in Florida, if i remember correctly.
Exodus 7-12 You ever hear of "I surrender?" Did it really need to go as far as it did? Nope it didn't, Pharaoh could have surrendered on Gods terms at any time. Yet i think this highlights an aspect of your view on God, correct me if i'm wrong, and that is He should be beholden to your personal feelings and beliefs.
You don't take the material in context and want to proclaim that God is not merciful. Did you not read Exodus 3:7,8? Just skip right over that, people crying out to God because of their affliction and He comes to rescue them, but OH let's just focus on those doing the afflicting. Look at them, God is fighting against them, those poor people! Really? For your position to hold, in my view, with this engagement, God would not have given Egypt any chance to surrender. Be real, if God is the way you portray Him to be, He should have just come in and flatten the entire place. Yet He didn't now did He? He gave them just as much to surrender under His terms as you and i.
How many thousands did god kill (or order Moses to kill) during the exodus?
You forget those nations had 400 years of God being slow to anger with them? Another thing you just skipped right over.
'nuff said! ;-)
I say not, your case is weak from my point of view. All you did was emphasise that you pull out what you want to make your case, yet you don't keep it within the context.
I look forward to reading your response.
@edward,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response. You win!
Just kidding of course.
Let's start with the concept of Original Sin. As I understand it, we are sinners because Adam and Eve sinned. God seems to be punishing future generations for the sins of others. Correct? Why would he, a merciful god put this burdon on the creation that he said he loved? Doesn't sound very merciful. A near eternal punishment for the first offense also comes across as rather extreme.
You use the terms 'correction' and 'punishment' for what God did to Eve and every woman after her. An eternal punishment sure sounds like a curse to me.
As far as Onan and Er (sounds like a great comedy team), you are correct that we are not told why Er was killed, only that God killed him for being wicked. You'd think that if he did something horrible it would have been documented. I'll retract this point because we have no information and shouldn't make assumptions, but, Onan was killed because he wouldn't impregnate Er's wife and weaken his birthright. God's punishment for this is ridiculous.
And where the hell did you come up with this rape thing?!?!
The story of Exodus and Pharaoh show that God kept "hardening his heart" every time that Pharaoh wanted to give in.
And yes, I would think that if (my version of) God was all powerful, he would have arranged it for Moses to march his people right out of Egypt. God destroyed almost all life on the planet with a flood but he couldn't figure out a way to rescue a few thousand of his chosen people? ;-)
How was God 'slow to anger' at any point in the Bible? He punishes and kills his people from the start. Did you not read Genesis?
I'm not sure about your comment "You forget those nations had 400 years of God being slow to anger with them?"
Are you referring to the 400 years that God abandoned his chosen people in Egypt? Can't punish them if you're not around I guess.
I TOTALLY agree with your last statement that my case is weak from your point of view. I'm reading the Bible as it's presented to me. The character of God comes across as a very stern dictator who is constantly disappointed in his flawed creation. He never seems to blame himself does he?
I am not reading an annotated Bible that has things explained to me by others. I may miss some historical context but I'm free of the dogma.
I think you read it as a book of salvation. Every one of God's actions has meaning and purpose to you.
I don't and will probably never get that.
@Bruce,
ReplyDeletewe are sinners because Adam and Eve sinned
No you are a sinner for your own sins.
God seems to be punishing future generations for the sins of others.
No God deals with us for our own sins, now some of us do suffer for the sins of our nation, parents, siblings, etc.
A near eternal punishment for the first offense also comes across as rather extreme.
Not close to eternal, notice in Genesis 3:22 God knew that if they took from the tree of life and lived forever it would not be a good thing. So He drove them out of the garden. Notice that He had to drive them out, i don't think they really wanted to leave. :-)
An eternal punishment sure sounds like a curse to me.
Bruce are you Mormon, think the women go to Heaven to have spirit babies? :-D That's a joke. Notice this is only in child bearing, not something you suffer with from birth. Another question, seeing that God said He "would greatly multiplied her sorrow and they conception." So she must have had some sorrow before. Seeing that zero times anything is zero... unless you believe in the big bang. :-D
God's punishment for this is ridiculous.
And where the hell did you come up with this rape thing?!?!
Why is it ridiculous? Because you don't like it? Where i came up with the rape is, Er gave false pretence to Tamar. He took her as a wife, which i believe she would be thinking to give her a child, probably she preferred a son, didn't they all? Now Er could have said no way!, didn't the kinsman for Ruth do that in Ruth 4:6? Er probably thought she would be a good lay and went in unto her knowing full well that he didn't want to give her a child. The way i see that he raped her is that he used her to get what he wanted,pleasure, yet not fulfil what she would believe was to be done. One definition of rape is Sexual connection with a woman without her consent. Did she consent with him to get his jollies and shoot his load on the ground? Nope. She consented that Er would give her a child. God takes marriage very seriously. (See Genesis 2:24)
God destroyed almost all life on the planet with a flood but he couldn't figure out a way to rescue a few thousand of his chosen people?
Actually this is more of what you are forgetting. God was using Pharaoh as an example to future generations and the world(Exodus 9:16). (Also i think you missed my post giving an explanation of hardening heart. I won't repeat it here.). Also see (Exodus 33:19).
How was God 'slow to anger' at any point in the Bible? He punishes and kills his people from the start. Did you not read Genesis?
ReplyDeleteOh i read it, however i believe that you are forgetting something important. Like say for instance: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5) God let it go far enough and then in His time did something about it. Future generations remembered what had happened.
Are you referring to the 400 years that God abandoned his chosen people in Egypt?
Again you are forgetting more. No God did not abandon them in Egypt. However let's clear up the 400 years. This was given to Abraham, Genesis 15:13,16. Now i use these two verses one gives the years 400, the other explains why, "The iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." (This would be the part of God being merciful.) Also realize from the scripture in my last post that God was using Pharaoh to make His name known.
The character of God comes across as a very stern dictator who is constantly disappointed in his flawed creation.
Could this be because of your presuppositions to God? He is not constantly disappointed, remember Abel, Enoch, Noah, Moses, David, Asa, Hezekiah. Ya they had their flaws, yet they strived to do what was right. We just have recorded history of many that didn't. I personally believe that if the good out weighted the bad we would believe that this is not true. One doesn't have to live long to realize that man is inherently wicked.
I am not reading an annotated Bible that has things explained to me by others.
That's not a bad thing. ;-)
I sometimes say "Don't ever say never, never is a long time." Question is do you want to "get that"? If you don't want to, you won't, if you do, then you just might.
Isaiah 55:8,9
Your view is interesting and it challenges me to give an explanation, i do enjoy reasoning with you and others. (Isaiah 1:18a)
@Edward,
ReplyDeleteI'll try to make this short.
Exodus 34:6-7 clearly states that God is merciful, gracious and forgiving yet he will punish the guilty and their children "unto the third and fourth generation". This phrase shows up many time in the Bible
The skeptic bible has a page of biblical contradictions about this.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html
God still increased the pain felt by women during childbirth as punishment. It's still a cruel curse. Of course, you have to believe the bibles explanation for this and ignore the real world realities.
I'll give you another shot at the Onan/Er story. I think you mixed up the characters. And remember that women are treated as little more then property in the OT. A man sleeping with women other then his wife for birth right reasons was not uncommon. Did Abraham rape Sarah's slave Hagar?
I really don't have time (or desire) to go through every point but thank you for your well thought out responses. I do appreciate your input.
I think we do have common ground in that we both recognize that God has to kill people and cause suffering to move his agenda forward. You think this is a good thing, I think it's a bad thing.
@Bruce,
ReplyDeletehttp://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/iniquity.html
And here i thought you were just "reading the Bible as it's presented to me." I should have asked where or what Bible you are reading. :-D
I did read these, Bruce these are lame. Talking about not having time to go through every point, it's so unfortunate how sad that page is. nuff said! :-)
ignore the real world realities.
Epidural?
I think you mixed up the characters.
Yes i did, sorry my bad.
And remember that women are treated as little more then property in the OT
Can you give me a reference? ;-)
Did Abraham rape Sarah's slave Hagar?
No! This was Sarah trying to help out God and making a mess.. and Abraham went along with it.
You think this is a good thing, I think it's a bad thing.
No i don't think it's a good thing, i do however realize that it is at times the necessary thing. (Ezekiel 18:23).
@Edward,
ReplyDeleteI agree that the Skeptic Bible is pretty lame. It definitely has an agenda. Before starting this project I thought it was a good reference but once I started reading the book in context, I realized that they are the "Fox News" of bibles! They put a negative spin on everything to push their agenda.
I'll reference it just to push peoples buttons. I do like their lists, like the one I linked to here. It does give you an idea that the Bible doesn't present a fully coherent message.
I read the Blue Letter Bible most of the time. It's simple and cleanly laid out